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This post is a person– who may believe either a gender identity or a Blanchard-Bailey theory of transness– doing their best to write what a Blanchardian believes. Confused about what an Intellectual Turing Test is or what “gender identity” and “Blanchard-Bailey” mean? Click here! Please read, then vote at the end of the post.
How do you define woman/man?
Where it does not hopelessly impede the clarity and elegance of my writing, I concede man and woman to the more modern usage, in exchange for keeping male and female to refer to the physical sexes normally present in humans. For me a person’s sex can only refer to physical reality, which includes but is not limited to chromosomal sex or sex at birth. A lot of people on my side of this debate might insist on calling a committed transsexual woman – that is, a person born male who has altered themselves to have feminine features and hormone levels – an altered male, and while that’s true in one sense, in another it might be more accurate to consider this to be a type of intersex. It’s a kind of intersex condition that’s been deliberately induced in adulthood, instead of arising naturally at birth, but intersex is still the best way to describe someone whose physical and medical realities will not fit the typical model of either sex. A person needing both breast and prostate cancer screenings, for instance.
So a woman would be a person, whether originally male or female, who is honestly and consistently presenting in a feminine manner and generally living life as a woman.
What are your opinions on the cotton ceiling?
Here’s where I have to admit that the internal discourse of the lesbian community is not an area where I have great expertise. It does seem natural to me that lesbians wouldn’t have any real interest in penises, and indeed the lesbians who talk about such things with me online tell me that they are also far less interested in the plastic strap-on kind than pornography or pop culture would have you believe.
I don’t think that there’s anything wrong with a lesbian choosing to involve herself with an autogynephilic transsexual if she chooses to, but as a lover of clarity in definitions, I can also see how the traditional female-attracted lesbian may not consider her a fellow lesbian.
I also think there’s a little-addressed practical reason for lesbians to resist this redefinition of their brand. Lesbians enjoy a degree of immunity from being seen by males as a potential sexual conquest. This is good for them, because typically male and female people want different amounts of sex and to approach sex in different ways, which creates a lot of conflict among heterosexuals.
(Here, just for ease of grammar and to avoid that awful nature documentary-esque tone, I will return to using ‘men’ and ‘women’; please understand that that what is true of ‘men’ below is true of males in general.)
The usual imbalance is that men want more sex than women, and they want to jump through as few hoops as possible to get it. As women are the ones choosing (as with many species) they can get a lot of what they want, which is why heterosexual and lesbian relationships look fairly similar – most people practice serial monogamy of varying levels of commitment, with some couples for life and some casual sex. We can see how different things would be if men had their way by looking at gay male relationships – even today, men who have sex with men report far more casual sex and higher numbers of partners than other groups.
But, while straight women do for the most part get their way in that college campuses are not the bathhouse orgy editorialists like to depict, they are still beset with more male sexual attention than they would like. Internet discourse concerning feminist groups taking issue with this aside, most women seem to accept this as the price of having sex with men.
Or, with males (I’m switching terminology again now). This is what lesbians, in staking their claim to a legitimate, non-negotiable sexuality, have just started to be able to avoid. If a small subset of lesbians who are interested in transsexuals begin to send the message that lesbians are not off-limits to all males after all, they lose this precious immunity.
This doesn’t have to be the classic slippery slope, by the way. I’m not saying that if men see lesbians having sex with women who were once male, they will assume that they are in with a chance as well. I’m saying this could happen even if the only males who consider themselves in with a chance are transsexual women. They still (generally, some autogynephilics are functionally asexual) have male-typical sex drives, and while I don’t have the numbers, it seems like it’s a minority of lesbians who are open to their advances. This would mean a lot of unwanted advances, something a lot of women find troubling to deal with.
It seems rational, to me, for lesbians to want to preserve their label as indicating that they are not open to the sexual advances of males.
Why are trans women disproportionately likely to be programmers?
I think I remember reading that autogynephillic-type trans women are, but not homosexual-type. This would make sense, given that the research suggests that autohynephilic-types have more usual male attributes, and that males in general are more likely to be programmers.
Though, if I recall correctly, the number of trans women in programming is even disproportionate relative to men. I don’t know why this is the case, but I do have a couple of theories:
a) Nerdy types are more accepting of less feminine women, as well as people who are outside the norm a bit in other ways
b) Programming jobs in the US, where this info is from, are heavily clustered in very liberal areas. It would make sense, if you were or wanted to be transsexual, to go to these areas, and if you were going there, it would make sense to learn to program.
Explain trans people assigned female at birth.
I don’t know the answer to this one and admit more research needs to be done.
On the surface, there seems to be something of an analogue with the homosexual transsexuals in Blanchard and Bailey’s work.
I would certainly admit to finding it difficult to tell apart butch lesbians and trans men. I’m told many of the latter start out as the former. And (anecdotal, I know) I don’t know, nor do I even ever recall reading about, a trans man who was exclusively into men.
What does differ here is that B-B’s homosexual-type trans women were typically into straight men, while female-to-male trans people (again, anecdotally and from what I happen to have read) typically seem to date bisexual or even lesbian women.
The figures often claimed as historical examples of the female-to-male phenomenon generally seem to have been rationally adopting the male role to escape the limitations placed on women. But, if this were the reason, one would expect this to have been more common in the past and less common today, while I think the opposite is likely true.
So again, my instinct is that this might be something to do with a kind of extreme butch lesbian thing that is somehow analogous to homosexual-type transsexual women, but the real answer is that as far as I know, no one has studied this enough to know the answer.
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The first item on the poll refers to what side you think the author of this post really believes, while the second item refers to what side you believe. When taking the poll, if you can POSSIBLY round yourself off to Blanchard-Bailey or gender identity, please do so. Please do this even if you have major disagreements with the side you are leaning towards. Only use “neither” if you really really really cannot in good conscience round yourself to either.
I’m calling GI. It is not AFAIK controversial among BB that there exist HSTS trans men. An actual BB post would discuss whether there also exist AAP trans men.
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Gender identity. The bit about women controlling access to sex seems more like a calculated attempt to appear to be rambling than a genuine ramble.
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This person is clearly an identitarian, though they do a pretty good job of imitating Ray Blanchard’s writing style.
The section on trans men is pretty ridiculous. Even AAP-deniers are not by this point claiming nobody who has ever identified as FTM has been exclusively androphilic (they’re denying that the FTM identity in those cases are accurate). Though they do seem to massively underestimate how common it is — I laughed out loud at something Blanchard retweeted where a woman wrote her lesbian daughter ‘knows more girls who say they’re straight boys than girls who say they’re lesbians’. The number of young (adolescent/emerging adult) natal females I know in real life alone with other-than-female gender identities is somewhere in the double digits. The number, including myself, who are exclusively gynephilic? Three, two of who are trans male, one of who is an average slightly-butch lesbian who identifies as lesbian and is perceived as such by both strangers and people who know her but sometimes requests they pronouns.
I’m suspecting most of the fakes will have an equally ridiculous section on trans men in one way or another. (“Anyway, Lou Sullivan was a conspiracy made up by the transbian cabal.”)
I also don’t think a Blanchardian would say ‘autogynephilics’, mostly because that is not a word. OP was probably going for ‘autogynephiliacs’, but even that’s a weird construction.
Also, OP generalizes the identitarian style of ‘making psychological predictions for trans people based on natal sex’ to Blanchardianism, which has an entirely different style (though if your main observation of ‘Blanchardianism’ is its TERF parody I can understand why one would make that mistake) and in fact relies entirely on having a different style. They did so in the cotton ceiling section, which is at least understandable in that even by my weirdo interpretation of the typology the vast majority of gynephilic trans women have the etiology in which predictions should be made by natal sex, but you’d expect an actual supporter to point out it only works one way.
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Also, while not directly related to the topic at hand:
“What does differ here is that B-B’s homosexual-type trans women were typically into straight men, while female-to-male trans people (again, anecdotally and from what I happen to have read) typically seem to date bisexual or even lesbian women.”
The phenomenon described here, while real (though greatly overstated), should not be interpreted as ‘HSTS men are more attracted to gynephilic than androphilic women’.
Trans people of any gender/type combination are at a massive disadvantage in the dating game. A*Ps of either gender are probably less screwed than HSTSes, as both of them are ‘chasers’ — keep that in mind, it’ll be on the test — and can just pair off with each other as a result. HSTS women not uncommonly end up with gynemimetophilic (= MTF chaser) cis men, although neither party will admit it, or with HSTS men, or at least with straight cis men less ‘appealing’ than a cis woman of equal status would attract.
Some people at the points on the HSTS spectrum where natal females become increasingly likely to live as men are indeed attracted to gynephilic women (who have very different gender presentations, even when ‘femme’, to straight women), but not many trans men are because if you have that experience it’s just more adaptive to…not transition, unless your dysphoria really is that severe. (I should point out at this point that I greatly regret trying to explain the type difference by accenuating the social aspects of HSTS dysphoria and that it was a really stupid decision. Physical dysphoria is a very, very important part of HSTS dysphoria. Unless we’ve shifted to the alternate universe where ‘stone butch’ was never a concept.) So why do some straight trans men pair up with gynephilic cis women?
Because of the sheer number of cis women who identify as bisexual or lesbian but are actually AAP andromimetophiles (= FTM chasers).
Until very recently, if you were attracted to natal females with masculine characteristics your main target would be butch lesbians. If you wanted to date that sort of person, you would be a lesbian. Only having a minority of your attraction be in the direction of actual women is not significant there. This is the reason behind the historical connection between post-transition men and the lesbian community — it was much less a decision on the part of the men than on the part of the women, who didn’t want to let the people they were most attracted to out of their sight. The lesbian community also allowed a convenient place for women who, while not naturally GNC and with very different gender presentations to their HSTS-spectrum counterparts, wanted to be more masculinate than society allowed to do so.
So the lesbian community for decades shaped itself around an attraction to the most masculine natal females they could possibly find and set up everything they could to keep these people connected to the community and thus to the attention of andromimetophiles, regardless of if it would make any kind of logical sense for these people to have that connection.
Of course, AAPs transition, and increasingly often. The difference between HSTS and AAP ex-lesbians has absolutely been commented on, and extensively, though not in those terms. To see people talking about it you’ll have to go to those old-style TERFs, like dirtywhiteboi67. Those people write at length about all the ‘girly dykes’ they knew who ‘got sucked into the FTM machine’ and came out of it with ‘T having made them attracted to men’…it wasn’t the T, friend.
As it stands now, though, the andromimetophilic lesbian pipeline has been interrupted by the fact that trans men of both types now routinely transition young enough they were never connected to the lesbian community in the first place. One can expect to see a lot more HSTS men turning up with straight girlfriends.
I-I hope
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“Because of the sheer number of cis women who identify as bisexual or lesbian but are actually AAP andromimetophiles (= FTM chasers).”
MTF chasers tend to be straight-leaning. Is this the same for FTM chasers? If so, that seems like it’d cause some confusion in and about the lesbian community (and could be responsible for the stereotype of lesbians who just haven’t met the right guy yet?)
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I alluded to to that later, in that the attraction to extreme masculinity in natal females is strong enough for primarily androphilic women to identify themselves as gynephilic instead to get closer to their objects of attraction. (A semi-related note: gynemimetophiles who identify as bisexual score a lot higher on AGP scales than those who identify as heterosexual, though this specific finding awaits replication. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if the same exists on the flipside.)
I think AAP andromimetophilia amongst self-identified lesbians has a lot of explanatory value, and one part of that is the phenomenon you point out, as well as many other variations of lesbians-dating-men (e.g. ‘lesbian until graduation’ phenomenon). Obviously not every single bisexual female narrative can be explained just by slapping those labels onto it, but a surprising amount makes sense when you account for the possibility of primarily-androphilic women who are nonetheless attracted to a very specific type of person who in the past would have identified as female, and who have incentive to look and act more masculinate than they would in mainstream society.
Not entirely related but something that came to mind when I was thinking about this topic earlier: In my early-mid teens I had a friend/mother figure in her late forties/early fifties who was bisexual and had settled down in a long-term relationship with a man. A few years ago, she divorced her husband and got with another woman. A couple years after that, she entered a polyamorous relationship with that woman and her ex — now a transitioned woman. She herself crossdresses as male regularly and last I talked to her identified as bigender and said she had mild dysphoria in both directions.
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Now I really want to distinguish between attraction to masculine natal females and feminine natal females in my next gender survey…
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Also, I’m planning to make a sort of “transgender narratives survey” soon, where I ask trans people about their experiences with and narratives about their gender. Do you have any ideas for Blanchard-informed questions that don’t scream “The survey maker is sympathetic to the outgroup” to the participants?
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I am starting to consider the possibility that gynephilic trans women have outgroup sensors attached to their wrists that flash whenever anyone engages in something adjacent to Bad Wrongthink and excommunicates the perpetrator. At the very least, the predictions that makes can’t be worse than the ones identitarianism does.
I have also wanted for a long time to do an informal study on autoandrophilia markers in androphilic trans men, so I’ve spent a decent amount of time thinking about how to avoid setting off the Bad Wrongthink sensors.
The unfortunate reality is that some trans people, of either etiology but obviously moreso one of them, will get suspicious when you start asking questions about arousal while engaging in X. This is rightful suspicion from their perspective, in that they’ve heard a lot of less-than-positive things about Blanchardianism and have concluded as a result that anyone asking about ‘fetishism’ is eEeEeEeViL and dedicated to using the results of the study (even if said results are “I have never done this ever”) to ruin their lives and probably also firebomb their house and stab their parents. The best workaround I have found is asking if someone has ever engaged in X in the first place and use that as a proxy for arousal. This means you might have to get pretty specific about your questions, like asking about forms of transvestism that are overwhelmingly more common in AGP than HSTS women (that is, the private secretive hidden-from-everyone kind that acts in binge-purge cycles where you get rid of all the clothes but they keep coming back). Unfortunately, some arousal-related questions will be inescapable.
It would also do you a lot of good to ask questions about whether their transsexualism is ego-syntonic or ego-dystonic, which are such close proxies to type they’ve actually been used as the names in previous typologies. See Lawrence’s description of A*P gender identity as ‘cross-gender’ rather than ‘core’ and her writings about ‘cross-gender identity’ for expansion on that topic. Ask people how much they struggled, if they expected people to be surprised (and if the people in question were actually surprised), how gender-conforming they were before coming out, etc., and cross-reference with all the other proxy-for-type questions you’ve manged to stuff in.
Also, do not forget AAP and that it does not present the way AGP does. I keep cringeing whenever studies conclude AAP doesn’t exist because they can’t find any natal female transvestites.
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I can probably get away with *some* questions about ‘fetishism’, as long as I frame them as a follow-up to the previously done AGP survey. Are there some sexual questions that work well on both AGPs and AAPs?
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Crossdreaming appears to be equally common for each A*P type. Questions about crossdreaming in childhood specifically would be a good idea, in that a lot of “I’m a transgay but was GNC as a child checkmate Blanchardians” narratives include a lot of crossdreaming when you look into them.
Roleplaying as a member of the non-natal gender on the internet while pre-transition, strong identification with characters of the non-natal gender pre-transition, etc. all seem pretty common and not attached to sex or gender. (Actually, I’ve probably encountered more AAPs who get strongly attached to and identify with male characters characters (especially video game characters they get to play as) than AGPs with female ones, and that’s keeping in mind how infamous pre-trans girls are for only playing females in video games.)
I also keep trying to think of AAP-specific questions and keep coming back to ‘interest in homoeroticism in fiction’.
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Also, question about erotic transvestism that AAPs are notably more likely to answer yes to: “Have you ever identified as genderfluid?”
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You clearly have some interesting thing to say trentzandrewson, but I must admit I struggle to follow along. I think I need to write a glossary and draw some diagrams.
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Yeah, I’m not good at the whole coherence thing sometimes. When I get around to writing actual blog posts I’ll have to define a lot more terms and account for the fact that not everyone is hyper print-oriented.
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There’s about as many who voted BB on this as who voted GI, but no comments argue for BB. Can someone who voted BB explain?
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