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[content warning: discussion of sex with children and teenagers; tentative approval of the latter under some circumstances; brief discussion of rape]
To be clear here: I am talking about whether it is harmful to have sex with and date people below the age of eighteen. I am not talking about the legalities of sex with people below the age of eighteen. The legalities of sex with people below the age of eighteen are hella complicated and I am not qualified to have an opinion on them. Nevertheless, things can be harmful even if it is not a good idea to make them illegal.
Sex with teenagers is, I think, distinct from sex with children, and the two should be considered separately. Prepubescent children sometimes do have sexualities: it is not uncommon for a child to have sexual fantasies (or fantasies that in retrospect were sexual) or to want to kiss another child or see them naked. But children are pretty much always autosexual or interested in other children; it is vanishingly rare for a child to genuinely want to do anything remotely sexual with an adult. Therefore, instances of sexual contact between children and adults can be safely assumed to be sexual assault or rape.
This argument, however, does not apply to postpubescent people. Teenagers often do want to have sex with adults, and are quite determined about getting it; there are many cases– from Vili Fualaau to Lori Mattix— of quite young teenagers who had sex with adults and as adults insist that it was a wonderful experience they were glad to have had. Needless to say, this response is extremely uncommon among people who were raped as eight-year-olds.
But it can still make sense to condemn adults having sex with teenagers. After all, if someone drives drunk and they don’t get in an accident and they save a bunch of money on cab fare, we don’t say “what a useful budget hack!” We say “what the fuck, someone could have died!” In spite of the good outcomes of some cases of sex with teenagers, it can be justified to respond with “what the fuck, you could have seriously hurt them!”
But could it have seriously hurt them?
Much of the evidence about teenagers dating older partners is correlational, due to difficulties in assigning people randomly to date older men or not. It seems to increase risk of unprotected sex and teenage pregnancy, of unwanted sex, of STIs, of unprotected sex again, of STIs again, of teenage pregnancy and STIs again, of unprotected sex and teenage pregnancy yet again, and of unprotected sex and teenage pregnancy still again, and carrying the pregnancy to term instead of having an abortion. Interestingly, that last study also shows that women with significantly older partners are less likely to have unplanned pregnancies; I have no idea what that one’s about. This study claims to establish causality, and finds that adolescents who engage in problem behavior are more likely to get older boyfriends, but that an older boyfriend also increases their chance of engaging in problem behavior.
So I think there are three phenomena going on here. First, our culture stigmatizes the hell out of sex with teenagers; most people tend to view an adult having sex with a teenager as morally wrong. Thus the population “people who are willing to have sex with teenagers” is disproportionately full of people who are willing to do morally wrong things, which includes spreading STIs, getting teenagers pregnant or having their children, and raping them.
Teenagers are generally lacking in life experience, as they are essentially beginning adults. This isn’t necessarily a reason not to date teenagers: one can imagine a society in which teenagers are supposed to date adults, because adults have their shit sorted out and can guide the teenager away from making serious mistakes. But it interacts poorly with a lot of adults who date teenagers being bad people, because teenagers are less skilled at identifying and avoiding bad people, because they don’t have any practice in it. This vulnerability is another reason why unethical people may be disproportionately attracted to dating teenagers.
Second, teenagers are legally unequal to adults to a degree that no adult is to another adult. They are not legally permitted to drink, smoke, consent to medical treatment themselves, work full-time, vote, or (in many cases) drive; they are not allowed to own property in their own name, even if they worked to earn it; if they decide to move out, the police will literally collect them to return them home; various other restrictions may apply to them, such as curfews. I think that this imbalance of power can poison the relationship. In part, this is because of material benefits that teenagers get from the relationship (being driven places, alcohol, getting to use the adult’s really cool video game collection); in part, it is because the imbalance of power winds up making Being An Adult seem really cool and glamorous, and thus perhaps blinding the teenager to flaws they would notice in someone their own age.
Now, you might argue “hey! Ozy! I’m a youth rights supporter! I personally believe that teenagers should be allowed to own property, that emancipation should be significantly easier, that teenagers should be able to consent to medical treatment themselves, and that a teenager should be able to drink and smoke to their heart’s content!” I may or may not agree with you (I think teenagers owning property is a good idea, but am not convinced about making it legal for teenagers to smoke), but regardless the issue is not what you think should exist, but what exists right now.
Third, teenagers are vulnerable. I tend to dislike arguments of the form “teenagers are vulnerable! Their brains aren’t developed yet! An adult who dates teenagers is taking advantage!” I, a crazy person, have a brain that works much less well than the average neurotypical teenager; if they can’t consent to sex with adults, then I can’t consent to sex with non-borderlines. I do not want to be consigned to dating only borderlines for the rest of my life. While I respect people who choose to date borderlines, for me personally one borderline per relationship is enough. But nevertheless it is true that teenagers are in a vulnerable position– both for brain-development reasons and for being-a-training-wheels-adult reasons– and that should be taken into account.
So what’s my conclusion?
First, the younger the teenager, the more likely it seems to me that they are unready to seriously date or engage in sexual intercourse with anyone. Adult relationships are very different from the relationships of thirteen-year-olds; relationships among thirteen-year-olds typically have extraordinarily fast turnover, low levels of commitment, and a strong tendency to involve your parents driving you to movies or making awkward eye contact with each other at malls. Most thirteen-year-olds are simply uninterested in the long-term commitment and non-mall-related dates associated with adult relationships. Similarly, many teenagers are simply not ready for sex. For very young teenagers, a milder form of the sex-with-eight-year-olds-is-almost-certainly-rape objection applies: if they were making an informed and uncoerced judgment, they would probably not want a relationship with adults; given that they do, we can assume that their judgment is uninformed or coerced.
Second, I completely endorse older teenagers choosing not to have sex with or date adults. I think in the current environment the wise choice for teenagers is not to date adults, because adults who want to date teenagers are disproportionately bad people to date. Nevertheless, people are likely to ignore my wise advice. In that case, I believe Dan Savage’s ‘campsite rule‘ applies: when you date a teenager, you have to leave them better than you found them. That means being aware of the vulnerable position of teenagers– both legally and developmentally– and taking steps to reduce the chance that it will cause them harm. That means being very cautious about their boundaries, ensuring that they feel comfortable saying ‘no’, and making it clear that your attention and affection are not conditional on sex or dating. That means modeling good relationship skills– conflict resolution, caring about the other person’s happiness, self-awareness– so that the teenager has a good toolkit they can use in their future relationships.
I do not think that all relationships between adults and teenagers are unethical, but I do think that they are all risky, and that the adult has a responsibility to make sure that there’s a good outcome rather than a bad one.
While I agree that caution surrounding teenage sexuality is important, and much higher caution surrounding child sexuality is important, I still think this is too much. If society would stop emotionally abusing teenagers for having sexualities, (hell, people in general for that matter) there would be a lot less trauma regarding sex even if (in fact, I’d say because of) we end up being more cavalier about it.
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With or without shame of teens’ sexuality, if adults could have sex with teenagers with no consequences it could very easily become the norm. When that happens, a new sexual oppression arises–and teenagers’ sexuality once again becomes shaped by the expectations of adults. It stops being about self-exploration and becomes about adults’ fulfillment and desire for order.
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You’re gonna have a norm one way or the other. I’d rather have a norm that doesn’t try to fight teenage hormones head-on, and then work on dismantling society’s attempts to bully people into following the norm. Currently, we fail on both counts. So, you know.
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You seem to be falling into a false dichotomy I see all the time, which is unfortunately most of the basis for how we treat this issue legally.
In this dichotomy either:
A. It’s wrong for post-pubescent kids to have sex with anyone.
B. It’s fine for post-pubescent kids to have sex with anyone, including adults.
There’s no reason we can’t say it’s okay for kids to have sex with each other, where the kind of problems of adult-youth relations aren’t present. We already do this to an extent. But we could definitely stand to reduce the stigma around it.
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No, I’m not falling into a false dichotomy. What I said was “norms are inevitable, therefor we should choose the best one”. Do you dispute that we currently have a norm of “sex is bad and teenagers should feel bad for being horny”? Because it sure seems like that’s the norm.
Letting teenagers have sex with each other and only with each other is sub-optimal because teenagers know jack shit about sex, romance, have little experience dealing with lust while respecting the boundaries of their partner, etc… They are liable to fuck up. If teenagers need to be protected from bad sex, they need to be protected from each other because they can, will, and empirically do mess each other up with bad sex.
What we need is better sex education, which means experienced and caring teachers actually teaching teenagers what they need to know. Hands-on, just like we teach sports by actually playing it, or music by actually performing it, or math by actually solving it. Setting teens up to trial-and-error their way to sexual knowledge is a great way to traumatize a bunch of teens with all the errors that will necessarily happen.
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Like, if you’re worried about teenagers being taken advantage of, teach them how not to be taken advantage of. Your current plan just delays the inevitable because at no point are the skills to avoid abusers actually taught. So rather than 14-year olds being abused, it’s 18-year olds. This is not much of an improvement. Especially since it comes at the cost of 4 years of autonomy.
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Even further: the question is not “can abuse happen under this system” because the answer is “yes” for any system you choose. The question is “how much abuse happens under this system relative to other systems” and you have not demonstrated how inexperienced teens sneaking around behind their parents’ backs minimizes abuse.
My argument is that experienced partners can take care to avoid the harmful actions that naive teens would take. Then you just need some sort of vetting system to keep the ratio of abusers at or below baseline (it’d be nice to drop it to zero, but unreasonable to expect it because reality is not that convenient). A couple of brainstorming ideas: registered sex therapists; dinner with the parents as a date interview (think job interview).
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Sufficiently thorough verbal education is enough, and that would be possible if there was less stigma around sex and particularly youth sex. There is no reason this would have to be hands-on, dicks-in experience. Awkward sex is not that harmful. The loss of freedom to find one’s own sexual way that would likely come from routine sexual initiation by adults would be harmful.
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You know this because of the thorough exploration, measurement, and comparison of the alternatives, right?
Except that hands-on, dicks-in experience is significantly more effective education. Just like actually solving math problems yourself is significantly more effective math education.
Hands on education involves large quantities of sense data not available from verbal education, as well as immediate feedback
“Awkward” is not the only way teens fuck up. Not by a fucking long shot.
There’s no loss of freedom so long as the teens get to say no and have that be respected. I’m not saying teens should be required to have sex with adults, but the option should be made safe and available.
Like, for example, a whole bunch of teens don’t find their own sexual way at all. Because not everyone is equipped to do that kind of exploration, and we as a society have denied them any alternative. And it seems somewhat privileged to claim what works for some people is sufficient for everyone.
Like, have you actually looked at age of consent over the world? Do you know it’s 16 in over half the states in the USA? 16 in Canada? 15 in Sweden? 14 in Italy? The idea that letting teens have sex with adults leads to worse outcomes does not appear to be borne out by the evidence…
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Of course being good at sex can only come through practice. But the really bad fuck-ups–unwanted pregnancies, failures to get consent–can be educated against without using any penises in that moment.
I’m pretty sure that most of the places in the US where the age of consent is under 16 there’s a huge asterisk there. It’s 16 if the ages are within a certain number of years. Or sometimes, grossly, if there is parental consent to marriage. This tends to be in southern states that actually do have worse outcomes.
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It’s not just good at sex, it’s good at the interpersonal communication surrounding sex and during the act of sex itself. And the most effective way to teach that is, in fact, hands on experience. The social component of education is sorely lacking, verbal didacticism does not solve this.
I notice you didn’t answer the question about empirical evidence. You keep asserting verbal-only is sufficient. I am telling you, it wasn’t for me. Not by a fucking long shot. It wasn’t for a bunch of my friends. You want to say our experiences are statistically irrelevant, you give me the goddamn stats. But given the rise of PUA and Incels and so on, what data I have certainly seems to agree with my view that we are statistically significant. And as far as I can tell, no one wants to actually do the experiment to see if it would be an improvement. Deliberate ignorance is not an acceptable defense.
And I didn’t say under 16, I said 16. My point is that there are a number of teenage years (16 to 19) where sex with adults is consequence free in a good chunk of the US, and it doesn’t result in the horrifying consequences that people keep saying it would. And there are more in Sweden (15-19), and even more in Italy (14-19, only missing the teen year of 13), and these places appear to have neither more sexual trauma nor adult-with-teen-relationships as normative. Unless someone is sitting on some articles I haven’t seen.
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Eh, right now it seems like I’m less prone to terrible fuck-ups in my sex life than I used to be as a teenager. But the adults who were attracted to me back when I was a teenager weren’t all that better than teenage-me.
And I myself don’t find the idea of having sex with teenagers very enticing any more. Not because I think it’s “evil” or whatever, but because — well, they seem like kids to me now. They’re younger than my baby brother! Sometimes a teenage kid will seem really mature, but then they venture into some other topic and — yup, definitely a kid.
So, it’s pretty likely that teenagers will pair up with not-terribly-mature adults, and various sex-related disasters will not be averted as often as you seem to hope.
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You’re typical-minding a little hard there. I, for example, find mentoring even little children enjoyable. I, therefor, expect there to be a non-zero number of people who would find mentoring teenagers on sex to be enjoyable. And I am interested in investigating whether this can be leveraged to improve sex education.
The whole point is not to leave things up to chance. Well, not entirely, anyways, but the teens get final say in what they participate in (just like EVERYONE). The idea is to empirically investigate what works, what makes a good learning experience, and make that situation more available.
And even if it only helps a little, is that not worth doing in and of itself? Is that not how we make things a lot better, one small step at a time, but keep stepping?
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I like mentoring children too — hell, I’ll even give tons of sex advice to any teenager willing to listen. And yet I don’t want to hook up with them, so I don’t see how your argument works.
There are certainly people who would enjoy having sex with young teenagers, but would most of them be willing and able to be good mentors?
As an analogy, consider the difference between a good internship, where the employer and the “mature” employees actually spend effort and resources to make the experience useful for the intern, and an “internship” where the intern gets the soul-sucking gruntwork that nobody wants to do and gains practically no transferable skills. Sometimes the latter can even be a negative-value experience — instead of improving the intern’s future life or having no effect, it gives them bad habits and demotivating beliefs, making them worse at future jobs and more miserable in the long term.
Unfortunately, young teenagers are even more inexperienced than young people looking for internships, so it would be easy for a determined adult to talk them into a bad deal. And since teenagers have very little power both legally and socially, there’s not much they could do about it after the fact.
The problem is not just that the gains are small, but that there are costs in addition to gains, and it’s not immediately obvious that we should make this trade-off.
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Again, typical minding. You may not enjoy it, but you are not everyone. Some people clearly do enjoy having relationships with teens, or else we would need neither a law nor a social norm against adult-teen relationships in the first place. Naievely, there should be some non-zero intersection between people who enjoy relationships with teens and people who want to be and are capable at being mentors. And, of course, we can investigate how to create such people, we don’t have to accept the baseline rates. Just like we can create (via education and incentives) engineers and programmers and doctors etc… Rather than accepting the baseline that arises naturally (hobbyists).
Also why we should do experiments. Because getting more data is good. But first, we can look at places in the world that already differ from us and see if the horrible consequences (the supposed costs) that people claim would happen to us are happening in those other places. And the data I have indicates that the consequences, the costs, the drawbacks, are significantly slighter than often indicated. Or are 30-year-old-15-year-old relationships normative in Sweden?
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My ideal game plan is significantly less dangerous than you’re imagining. Here, I’ll outline it:
1) Legalize sex work (N years of politicking).
2) Found school of sex therapy, teach sex workers therapy, teach therapists sex work (~3 years)
3) Hone the art of sex therapy on adults (10-20 years)
4) Start investigating sex therapy on consenting teens in places where it’s legal (18-19 most places, 16-19 in Canada and about half the US, etc…)
5) If prior results are successful, attempt to politick way into opt-in trials for younger teens (14+)
6) If prior results are successful, politick to lower age of consent to empirically verified safe point
7) Politick to reform sex education to use empirically effective methods, depending on prior results may include optional access to sex therapists (this should probably be started midway through step 4 and constantly be updated as more data comes in).
Please, tell me what’s so horrible about this that not even one city should try it to see if it works?
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Oh, I see. Well, if we were at point 5 in your plan, we would be having this discussion in a completely different society. I thought you wanted to legalize sex between adults and 12-year-olds right now, “to empirically investigate what works”, and I didn’t think that was a good idea.
My partial counter-proposal would be to reform sex education ASAP, but add relationship skills and self-management tips instead of hands-on mentoring. Then teenagers might be:
a) less likely to harm each other,
b) less vulnerable to bad partners, and
c) more prepared to know what they need when your sex therapy reform finally reaches them.
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>one can imagine a society in which teenagers are supposed to date adults, because adults have their shit sorted out and can guide the teenager away from making serious mistakes
Wasn’t that society called Ancient Greece?
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It was also practiced in feudal era Japan.
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Though in both societies the main beneficiaries of an extended dating system were young men, while (this criticism applies more to Greece) young ladies of the upper class were often simply married and locked up to weave.
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“First, our culture stigmatizes the hell out of sex with teenagers; most people tend to view an adult having sex with a teenager as morally wrong. Thus the population “people who are willing to have sex with teenagers” is disproportionately full of people who are willing to do morally wrong things.”
I feel like this is a really important point. I’ve personally known young teenagers who were absolutely desperate to get laid, were turned down by people who were into them but refused once they found out their age, and ended up in much unhealthier relationships with people who had fewwer scruples.
I’m not saying anyone has an obligation to date teenagers, or anyone for that matter. And I also don’t think the solution is “making it the norm for adults to date teens”. But I kind of wish we could spread the message somehow that if you’re an adult feeling resistance towards dating/having sex with a teen who is actively pursuing you, who you otherwise would have dated/had sex with if they were an adult, you’re pretty much always going to be a better choice for them than the choice they’ll end up with otherwise, precisely because you’re being conscientious about it.
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I feel like there’s a reasonable concern that, rather than being better, you’d wind up being differently bad, due to whatever concerns you have plus the idea that you’re protecting them from someone worse (which is an intensely fucked up dynamic). I don’t know if that concern is overriding, but I think it’s worth pointing out.
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Hey, non-bonobo-rationalist here with a different perspective!
My commitment to monogamy and abstinence gives me a different perspective on this issue. Is it bad and unhealthy for adults to have casual sex with children? Yes, but casual sex is always bad and unhealthy. Sex is best in a committed relationship intended to last till the end of eternity – we say “till death do you part” because we haven’t figured out how to stop that whole death thing yet. Our society’s endorsement of casual sex is the problem here, and we’re only more concerned when it happens to children because we’re always more concerned about children, because we naturally love our children.
So the question becomes “is it bad and unhealthy for adults to date or even marry children”. And I’d say… why would it be? Men tend to date younger women; our society doesn’t enable men to make a decent income generally until their mid-twenties but fertility for women starts around thirteen. Our culture’s current cradle-robbing panic is weird, ahistorical, and dysgenic. I would advise that good men looking for wives *should* date girls below the age of consent, and make use of their developing brains to forge a relationship that will not break. Symmetrically, I implore adolescent girls to find good somewhat older men who are already making a healthy income and are looking for a younger wife. Marry as soon as legally possible, please. Our nation, and your happiness, depends on it.
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I am confused about how having intentions about a relationship is guaranteed to improve the outcomes of sex in a net positive way. I also have a great deal of sympathy for (hypothetical) you+3000 years, trapped in a relationship created by a decision of you now on what almost has to be, in the grand scheme of things, a whim.
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Self-modification and bootstrapping. If I’m married and I feel trapped and stagnant, my feelings are the problem, not the marriage. And I’m all for solving problems.
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It would be helpful to note that age *gap* is more significant than absolute age. A 20-year-old dating a 17-year-old is very, very different from a 20-year-old dating a 13-year-old.
Also, I think more of these conversations should account for adults who, while similar in age to other adults, are often in very different places in life. A disabled 25-year-old who can’t drive and lives with their parents might feel left behind by other 25-year-olds and thus relate better to people who also cannot drive and live with their parents.
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Also recall that all age gaps approach zero (as a ratio of gap to absolute age) as length of relationship approaches infinity.
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When I was a teen, my partners were in the same demographics as my friends (le shock) — “twice gifted” age peers, and adults who liked spending time around teenagers. I think dating adults was healthy and reasonable for the same reason that spending unusual amounts of time *talking* to adults was healthy. Most people my age couldn’t keep up intellectually, so lots of my close relationships were with older people.
So I’m definitely on team “create as much affordance for relationships between minors and adults as we can within the bounds of adequate harm prevention”. A position adjacent to mine that I have trouble with is the “minors should be dating adults rather than each other so they don’t fuck each other up by fucking”. Politely, fuck that, for the same reasons I don’t endorse enforcing that kids only be friends with adults and not with one another.
I wish our society had more room for weird outliers like me (arbitrary timeslices of me that I can remember being before I was, in fact, sexually active would have been *delighted* to find someone interesting of any age to explore sex with). The policies our society uses re. youth sexuality don’t do very well for anyone, because adults are by and large terrible at thinking about this stuff; even if that were different, the policies that would best take care of most people in small!me’s reference class would not do well by me.
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