We can distinguish, I think, between the aesthetic pleasures that people can appreciate immediately and the aesthetic pleasures that must be developed. For instance, anyone can tell that a picture is of an attractive naked woman with large breasts; however, it takes effort to appreciate the subtle interplay of light across her cleavage. The latter is called ‘taste.’
Having taste tends to make you dislike popular things and to dislike more things. This is, I think, because taste does not so much change the things you care about as give you more things to care about. A reader who doesn’t have particularly good taste in literature wants a protagonist who’s engaging, a plot that keeps them reading, and an absence of grammatical errors so glaring that it throws them out of the story. A reader who has good taste, conversely, wants all that and a world that feels so real you could step out into it, a thematic argument that coheres, a plot that continues to hold up a week later, psychological realism, and prose that sings. The former reader is perfectly satisfied with the Da Vinci Code; the latter spends the entire time going “OPUS DEI DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY.”
A lot of things that people with taste like are just completely inaccessible to people without taste. I think this happens for two reasons. First, sometimes you have to put in effort to learn how to appreciate things. My understanding is that in filmmaking there is something called “cinematography”, which possibly has to do with camera angles and things, and which is the reason that Hannibal is so trippy and the fight scenes in Mad Max Fury Road make more sense than those in other action movies. There are certain directors the cinematography of whom various people I know are excited about. I have absolutely no idea what they’re so excited about, because I don’t have taste in cinematography, but I’m glad they like it.
Second, when you appreciate a lot of different things, books can be good in different ways. For instance, you might read a book with absolutely gorgeous, lush worldbuilding and prose that is kind of lacking on the plot front. Since you appreciate more things about the book, you can enjoy it. Conversely, the reader who just wants an interesting plot is like “nothing happened in this book! 0/10.”
Unfortunately, a lot of people have decided to pretend that they have taste when they actually don’t. Perhaps this is because taste is a Veblen good, a way of showing off that you have enough free time to listen to all of Bauhaus and enough intelligence to understand what they’re going for. Some areas people try to cultivate taste in are just fake: for instance, even experts can’t reliably tell apart good wine from bad. This is of concern for any aspiring connoisseur. How do you know if you actually are learning more about poetry, or if you are just deluding yourself?
If you’re interested in not deceiving yourself about whether you have taste, I’d recommend running an occasional blind taste test (pun completely intended). Ask a friend to pick an unfamiliar song by a popular and widely disliked band, and an unfamiliar song by a band you like and think is generally good. If you don’t consistently pick the liked band, then you are probably engaged in self-delusion.
In my opinion, it is a good idea not to develop taste in anything where developing taste will cost you more money. For instance, I would strongly advise against developing taste in chocolate. You will no longer be able to appreciate the two-dollar chocolate bars at your local convenience store! You will find yourself dropping two hundred dollars at the Godiva store and thinking to yourself ‘wow, this is really a bargain’!
Conversely, there is no cost in developing a taste in literature. The Warrior’s Apprentice costs exactly as much as Storm Front, it’s just that one of those books is not written by a hack. Indeed, my understanding is that developing a taste in music may even save you money, because instead of spending a couple hundred dollars on the Fall Out Boy concert you’re spending twenty bucks to see some obscure hipster with an acoustic guitar.
You should absolutely not develop taste about anything that is necessary for your life. Personally, I require three to four cups of tea daily to remain a coherent and functional person. Quite by accident, I developed a significant enough amount of taste that I am repulsed by drinking Lipton tea, which I wind up drinking anyway when I am (for instance) on vacation and away from a steady tea supply. If I had better taste in tea, I would be equally grumpy when I had to drink Celestial Seasonings and I’d be unhappy any time I was in a restaurant.
There are some kinds of experiences where developing taste ruins the experience. For instance, I am a big fan of modern, non-representational art. I appreciate it on an instinctive, gut level: it makes me grin and wiggle and bounce up and down and flap my hands. I understand that many of the artists are attempting to question the nature of art and so on, but I see no reason to develop taste in this matter. I fear that developing an understanding of what Rothko means for painting would interfere with my instinctive delight in the big yellow-and-red square. I suspect that taste tends to be higher, more intellectual, more rarefied, and thus might interfere with pleasures that are childlike or animal.
“Ask a friend to pick an unfamiliar song by a popular and widely disliked band, and an unfamiliar song by a band you like and think is generally good. If you don’t consistently pick the liked band, then you are probably engaged in self-delusion.”
It’s amazing how completely foreign an experience of liking music this implies. Like, I know there are people who don’t react to liking a band by acquiring their entire disocgraphy and listening to it in chronological order on repeat for months, but I don’t really understand it until I hear something like this.
(I sustain this lifestyle by not liking very many bands.)
(I have no idea whether or not I “have taste” in music.)
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Even aside from that, even if there exists a song by a band I like that I haven’t heard before I’m still going to be able to recognize that it’s them on hearing it at least 90% of the time.
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Well, you could probably delay a few weeks on listening to a band’s new album and still do the test.
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You could run into some problems if (1) the obscure song is obscure because it’s bad or (2) you only like their older stuff because they’ve changed over time (e.g. David Bowie has changed consistently enough that I don’t think it’s unlikely that some people could genuinely like only certain parts of his career). A few tests might be a good idea, then.
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Wouldn’t work if you are of the opinion that music in general had basically ended by 1990.
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I actually have an almost inverse response to bands than you. When I like something by an author or filmmaker I will usually like the rest of their stuff too. This is not true for musicians. There are very, very few musicians where I end up liking more than a few of their songs.* Most of the time when I get an album my reaction is to listen to it once, put the two or three good songs on my mp3 player, and never listen to the others again.
I suppose I’d fail the test too, since the fact that I like one song by a band is not very good evidence that I’ll like other songs by that band.
*So far the only exceptions have been Meat Loaf, John Williams, and Jam Project. I don’t know what that says about me besides that I like bombast.
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But part of this is the way the modern music industry operates. Especially in the pop sphere, artists are working with dozens of producers on each album. You’re more likely to enjoy a majority of a certain producer’s output, than to sort by artist or even songwriter.
After all, John Williams is not the artist, who would be the performing orchestra. John Williams is the composer.
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It’s even more alien to me: I can recognize a band’s influences (provided I’ve heard said influences) by listening to one of their songs, there’s basically zero chance I’m not going to know who I’m listening to (even if I can rarely actually remember the name of the band, I’m really really bad with names).
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Nitpick: If a band is both popular and widely disliked, it must have some appeal, at least to the people it’s popular among. Not too long ago I listened to Barry Manilow for the first time and really liked many of the songs on the “Greatest Hits” album. Most of them are sappy love songs supposedly made according to formula, but I like sappy love songs, darn it!
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“Conversely, there is no cost in developing a taste in literature. The Warrior’s Apprentice costs exactly as much as Storm Front, it’s just that one of those books is not written by a hack.”
Apparently the cost to developing a taste in literature is that you no longer enjoy awesome things like The Dresden Files!
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Storm Front is definitely an early novel, and deliberately written to be a crowd pleasing adventure, so some of the seams show. Butcher works hard, and became a much better writer, but I’ll take Ozy’s word that you can find similar but better stuff.
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Yeah, Storm Front is not a spectacular book, but the later entries in that series are among the best modern fantasy I’ve read. If there are better authors with a similar style and sense of humor, I’d love to hear about them.
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You might appreciate the Laundry novels by Stross.
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Patrick:
Thanks for the recommendation; I will check them out.
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If you want something that is, in fact, basically more Jim Butcher, Seanan McGuire’s October Daye series is an excellent series.
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Some writers get better over time and some get worse. I wonder why?
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Better because of experience, worse because they picked all the low hanging fruit?
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Actually you can tell a lot about wine from a blind tasting, if you know your stuff.
As the linked article states:
“a typical judge’s scores varied by plus or minus four points over the three blind tastings” on a scale of 100.
Given that scorings are always on some level subjective that’s an unsurprising range.
There’s a lot of bullshit in the world of booze in general, and wine in particular; plenty of people who will blindly spend more money and declare the resulting taste “better”. However, it’s quite possible to learn to distinguish e.g. the notes of different fruits, the evidence of malolactic fermentation or of oak barrels, and make a reasonably objective judgement of whether the different flavours are well-balanced or not.
(To mention another of the studies that comes up in the Guardian article – people described a white wine with food colouring in it as a ‘jammy’ red, without much further comment. Well, if something is strongly crap in a distinctive direction, that tends to be your dominant impression, and there are grape varieties that have close relatives of the other colour, e.g. pinot).
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I agree so much! I’m tired of everyone trotting out these articles so smugly and being all like “being into wine is meaningless”
Yeah, a lot of the wine world is pretentious bull-crap. But you can be trained to learn how to differentiate wine. Taste is pretty subjective, and a good wine is a wine you like, but a good sommelier can help guide you toward finding a wine you like drinking. And while those tests certainly bring into question the validity of awards for wines, it doesn’t necessarily bring into question the expertise of wine experts. For one thing, tasting fatigue is thing. If the expert is tasting a bunch of wines all in a row, it becomes harder to differentiate between the flavors.
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via SSC: “The oft-repeated claim that wine experts can’t tell the difference between white and red wines is mostly false.”
http://sciencesnopes.blogspot.fr/2013/05/about-that-wine-experiment.html
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I can blindly tell a difference between my meads based on what type of closure I used.
I know there’s a lot of pretentious people out there that pride themselves on picking up ever more minute differences, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t differences.
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I like this, although I don’t like to identify as “having taste”. It connotes snobbishness, which I try to avoid. I don’t like pop, but it’s okay if other people like it, and play it in consensual contexts.
How would we distinguish between having a developed taste, and having an undeveloped taste which is simply different from mainstream? For example, some people think of modern art as a acquired taste, but you characterized it as being something you enjoyed on a gut level.
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The saddest kind of “taste” to develop is a heightened sensitivity to the shared heightened sensitivities of an in group which rewards shared tastes and punishes deviation. You get a whole spin off of people who are hyper sensitive to whether a thing will be popular or unpopular with their cohort, who in turn are also appreciating only whether it will be popular with their cohort.
Unfortunately, humans are SUPER GOOD at this, and generally can’t even tell when they’re doing it.
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Taste may give you more axes to care about, but it doesn’t determine your opinion on those axes. I think you are conflating them here. Someone with developed taste in chocolate, for instance, may notice and understand all the small details about a bar of chocolate and still prefer Hershey’s. It’s not that they don’t notice those axes; it’s that they have their own opinions about them.
I myself have had a lot of good whiskey in my life. I know what makes a whiskey good and what details to pay attention to. I still like $7 Old Crow.
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Yes, the very fact that “taste” is associated with a long tail of less popular things suggests that developed tastes do not converge.
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Yep, even consistent ratings don’t always correlate with price. My family once did a blind test of different brands of coke, with the following results:
– We all ranked sweetness in the same order (FTR: Pepsi is sweeter than Coca Cola).
– 3/4 of us preferred the cheap no-name stuff from our local discounter.
– All of us believed the one we liked best was Coca Cola, which was always false.
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Don’t forget this taste test falls apart when you drink a decent amount of pop. Part of having a taste is knowing that there can be too much of a good thing (sweetness in this case).
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“Storm Front” – I’m guessing you mean that Jim Butcher is a hack, not John Sanford, although they both definitely write popcorn books.
That’s interesting – I guess the question is whether I would really enjoy Bujold enough to make up for no longer being able to enjoy Butcher or any of his ilk, and I need to have a pretty good guess before i open my eyes.
(On a related note, I lost the ability to enjoy the Dr Who reboot after a particularly insightful Jacob Clifton review sites me summer of the worst crutches in the writing, and I’m still not sure if I’m happy about that.)
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Data point: I like both Butcher and Bujold quite a bit.
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Ah, Lipton’s, the scourge of all British people on holiday! I’ve avoided developing much taste in tea (and chocolate) for the same reasons as you, but those bags of floor sweepings are taking it too far.
I’m not sure what I think about increased discrimination interfering with the more childish/instinctive appreciation of art. I have very weak emotional reactions to visual art, but in music I still get the same kind of visceral response to particular textures or simple melodies that I have to replay over and over again. I just have a huge amount more to appreciate, too, it’s win-win really! On the other hand, with books I absolutely did lose the ability to appreciate some of the stuff I liked as a kid as I developed more taste. I don’t know why there’s a difference.
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Brits can’t develop taste in tea very easily; they’re flooded with Indian teas and it keeps them away from superior Chinese teas (which, to be fair, the Chinese also like to keep for themselves).
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To be fair, there is quite a bit of variety to both. I like most Darjeeling and Ceylon, but I hate Assam with a passion (sadly, that is what they serve you here 9/10 times if you order black tea…).
On the Chinese side, I don’t have that much experience, but there are a few Guangxi and Yunnan I like (one of the latter tastes so completely different from any other tea I know that it might as well be a different product).
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I think Lipton tea tastes just awful. Often the unbranded cheap teas taste a lot better.
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I was able to recover from the “no longer able to enjoy things because I developed taste.” I’m not sure how. I just remember a time period when I could no longer enjoy the stupid stuff I liked when I was younger, but eventually I started liking it again,
I think part of it might be that I’ve developed so much taste that I can basically find an angle with which to appreciate anything. For instance, when I first watched “Gundam Wing” I was delighted at how serious and philosophical it was, then I got frustrated at the fact that the characters talked like philosophy textbooks instead of people and stopped liking it. Now when I watch it again I find the the characters talked like philosophy textbooks instead of people incredibly silly and amusing and can’t get enough of it.
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I liked firework displays when I was younger because they are loud and filled with explosions. Then there was a time when I found them boring. Later still (and at present) I can appreciate them as a work of art. Developing taste in explosions led me to be selective about the explosions I appreciate but developing a taste for visual art led me to appreciate things I didn’t before.
Ghatanathoah, I don’ have any real insight into your changing attitudes on “Gundam Wing,” of course, but I can make some wild guesses. Maybe you were impressed by the philosophy espoused by the show, then you learned some philosophy and the show didn’t impress on that point and had nothing else to appeal to you, then you developed some humor that you didn’t have and now you find the show humorous. In that case it might be developing one taste caused you to lose enjoyment in a thing but developing a different taste allowed you to enjoy the thing for different reasons. This is a different explanation then “I’ve developed so much taste that I can basically find an angle with which to appreciate anything.”
This does raise an interesting question: does somebody who enjoys all painting have no taste in paintings, a highly developed taste in paintings, one or the other, or something else is going on? I could make all four answers seam to make sense…
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Your question can only be answered by examining the inner mental processes of the person who enjoys all paintings.
If they enjoy all paintings because “they’re pretty,” then they could be said to have no taste. If they enjoy one painting because of its composition, another for its use of colors, another for its realism, another for its abstractedness, and so on then they have a lot of taste.
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I can’t ignore an opportunity like this to plug my blog: I just did a blind taste test for Scotch with a friend, and the results were pretty interesting (https://thepenforests.com/2016/06/03/results-from-the-great-scotch-tasting-of-2016/). Summary: our ratings correlated somewhat with the price of the Scotch (0.32 for me and 0.53 for my friend), and more highly with the age of the Scotch (0.47 for me, 0.70 for my friend). Those aren’t amazing correlations or anything, of course, but I thought it was cool that we managed to pick out something real.
Note: I agree with Ozy here, do not develop a taste for Scotch if at all possible. It’s very expensive! I found it hard to avoid, though – high-end Scotch is just so *good*.
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Tried Johnny Walker Blue Label?
Best stuff I’ve ever had. Relatively inexpensive for nice Scotch, too.
(I generally stick to American whiskey if I’m buying, though. Gentleman Jack Daniels is my drink of choice. About 20% of the cost, about 92% as good.)
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I have quite a bit of taste in coffee, but it doesn’t stop me from drinking cheap stuff – they’re so different they’re practically different beverages. I put cream in the cheap stuff, for instance, which is unthinkable (literally – “does not compute”, not “is disgusting”) with real coffee.
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“Taste” as described is just classism.
I could have grown to appreciate a $300 bottle of Scotch with such an absurd level of tannins that it tastes like a moldy leather boot. It’s the same process by which I grew to appreciate mushrooms; periodic tasting over a couple of weeks while considering the way the different flavors interact. It’s quite easy. I chose instead to give a nearly-full bottle of reasonably expensive Scotch to somebody who would actually enjoy it, and stuck to my $40 bottle of whiskey.
Observe that “taste” always involves either an element of money or of time – both things that working-class people tend to have relatively little of. Things that are cheap and quick and likely to be executed in the course of one’s ordinary life – like learning to like mushrooms, unless of course they’re expensive mushrooms – aren’t described in terms of taste. Taste is reserved for leisure activities like reading or attending art museums, or expensive things like fine wine or cigars or cognac or Scotch.
The purpose of “taste”, in this sense, is to signal to others that you have the leisure time and money and inclination to focus on enjoying trivial pleasures (in a deliberate sense, -more- trivial pleasures than ordinary people enjoy; you’ve worked on cultivating a taste for subtlety). It is a signal of social status, and as such, there’s also a strong element of fashion to it; it’s doesn’t do to be into the same sort of things as the lower classes.
There’s no actual coherence to taste; it starts with the ability to distinguish small differences, and requires only the mindset to enjoy those differences as differences. There’s taste in pain, taste in wine, taste in coffee. Taste in wine, or coffee, or chocolate, does not imply enjoying only expensive wine, or expensive coffee, or expensive chocolate – it implies only that you can ascertain the differences between them.
That part isn’t necessarily classist; we all have taste in something, we can all distinguish subtle differences in some class of thing. Classism begins when you decide that the preferences of the majority are objectively bad and insufficient; that, if they shared your elevated ability to distinguish differences, they would share your preferences, and that therefore they must not have taste.
Quite simply: No. There is somebody out there who understands literature far better than I who enjoyed Twilight. This doesn’t imply they don’t have taste – it implies they have different preferences.
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I’ve been thinking about this, and ultimately, I think the term can be used both in the way you mean and the way Ozy means.
To the extent I understand Ozy’s model, it’s that there are some things that are more rarefied and more rewarding to most people’s preferences, such that exposure to them increases enjoyment, but tends to develop a preference. E.g., if you are currently drinking and enjoying Bud Light, there’s probably some beer that costs twice as much that you would enjoy more. It might not be the same beer for you that it is for me, but once you learn about it and add it to your repertoire, hedonic adjustment will render Bud Light a little less satisfying.
To the extent I understand your model, it is that taste responds to the time invested. If I become a zombie movie buff and spend a lot of time appreciating the subtle differences between 28 Days Later and Z Nation, I may raise my overall enjoyment of all zombie works because I now experience and enjoy details that I would not have detected. (It’s like Walter Payter’s quote about avoiding habit, but limited to the area where one is an otaku).
I think both models are correct some of the time, but I think you might overstate the effect of status signalling. If there were a class of Scotches that were more expensive to produce, more difficult for competitors to recreate, and that created more pleasure in their consumers, I would expect those to cost more. There’s definitely a signalling component, but if I enjoy drinking expensive Scotch when no one is watching, I’d be more likely to say that I just enjoy it. (Although I guess there may be a branding effect, where I enjoy it specifically because I associate it with exclusivity, but then I’m still enjoying it.)
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I find that, when developing taste causes me to stop liking something, it’s generally still better for me, because I enjoy having a more detailed negative reaction over having a less detailed positive reaction.
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“We can distinguish, I think, between the aesthetic pleasures that people can appreciate immediately and the aesthetic pleasures that must be developed. For instance, anyone can tell that a picture is of an attractive naked woman with large breasts; however, it takes effort to appreciate the subtle interplay of light across her cleavage. The latter is called ‘taste.’”
Best paragraph of 2016 so far.
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You’re spending your money somewhere. If you don’t experiment, you’ll never get to learn which things allow for the greatest differentiation. I can enjoy wine perfectly well at five/ten bucks a bottle, but scotch below about forty bucks a bottle is useless to me, and I’d rather do without (I already know a few favorites, but it’s worth my money to keep investigating different brands. The exploration is kind of the point of it).
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Or, to put it more succinctly- maximize utility. Especially on a blog like this which is all about intellectual hedonism: Appreciating things in both physical and idealistic form, prettly much what taste gives you th ability to do
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Is there any good way to un-develop taste in a given domain, after accidentally developing it? (Or, even better, to un-develop just the bits of taste which generate not-liking-the-previously-likable-stuff, while keeping the perception-of-subtle-details which enables liking the previously-unlikable stuff?) Because I seem to have stumbled my way into an excess of taste in visual novels, and this change seems thus far like it’s got more costs than benefits, such that if I can undo it then I think I should.
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