I recently read Lisa Duggan and Nan Hunter’s Sex Wars and Melissa Gira Grant’s Playing the Whore, both of which are giving me a lot of thoughts.
For white women in the middle class and above, one of the most potent forms of sexism has been pedestalization. In the nineteenth century, she was forbidden to vote lest she sully herself with politics, forbidden to have sexual freedom lest she give up her precious purity, forbidden to work outside the home lest she no longer be the domestic angel her husband cherished. In a 1980s amicus brief against a feminist anti-porn ordinance, Nan Hunter and Sylvia Law summarized several examples of twentieth-century pedestalization and the harm it caused to women:
Traditionally, laws regulating sexual activity were premised on and reinforced a gender-based double standard which assumed:
that women are delicate, that voluntary sexual intercourse may harm them in certain circumstances and that they may be seriously injured by words as well as deeds. The statutes also suggest that, despite the generally delicate nature of most women, there exists a class of women who are not delicate or who are not worthy of protection. [By contrast, the law’s treatment of male sexuality reflected] the underlying assumption that only males have aggressive sexual desires [and] hence they must be restrained. … The detail and comprehensiveness of [such] laws suggest that men are considered almost crazed by sex.
K. Davidson, R. Ginsberg and H. Kay, Sex-Based Discrimination 982 (1st ed 1974)…
For example, the common law of libel held that “an oral imputation of unchastity to a woman is actionable without proof of damage. … Such a rule never has been applied to a man, since the damage to his reputation is assumed not to be as great.
In the modern day, exposure to pedestalizing beliefs decreases women’s cognitive performance, people who pedestalize women are more likely to blame rape victims who don’t follow their standards for ‘proper’ behavior, and people who pedestalize women are more likely to believe women shouldn’t exercise their sexual autonomy by asking people out or initiating sex— to pick just three studies.
Pedestalization is one of the major ways that sexism continues to be reinforced in our society. After all, everyone would recognize that “women should stay home and take care of children because they’re too flighty and emotional to work” is bullshit, but “women should stay home and take care of children because women have a special emotional connection to children, and motherhood is the most important job in the world” slips past the radar. “Playing outside is for boys” is something the straw sexist in a movie says, but “little girls are so polite and mature, not rambunctious and rowdy like little boys” comes out of the mouth of the most ardent feminist. “These occupations are female-dominated because women suck at being in charge” is unthinkable, while “these occupations are female-dominated because women are so good at caregiving” is a routine observation.
How can it be sexist? It’s nice!
Of course, not all women have a special emotional connection to children or are good at caregiving, and not all little girls are nice and polite. There are two ways I’ve noticed that people deal with women who aren’t on the pedestal. First, they may conclude the women have been misled, taken advantage of: that evil men are forcing them to engage in the behavior that person doesn’t like. Second, they may conclude that those women are not really pure wonderful angels; instead, they’re evil and disgusting. In fact, the pedestalization of women is highly correlated with the degradation of women, both on a cultural and individual level. At first this may seem bizarre– how can you simultaneously believe that women are refined, moral creatures that men ought to sacrifice for and that women are horrible conniving bitches? Well, obviously, they don’t believe it about the same women.
Think about the classic Nice Guy ™. (Not to be confused with men who are merely sad about their romantic prospects and are called Nice Guys ™ because it makes feminists feel uncomfortable to admit that some people can’t get laid who didn’t do anything wrong.) He is often accused of being entitled to women’s bodies, but in my experience that’s usually not the case. Instead, the classical Nice Guy ™ starts by pedestalizing women: “women are wonderful people who will all choose whom to date based on solely their sterling moral qualities. All I have to do is be sufficiently self-sacrificing and chivalrous and I will find a girlfriend.” Once this doesn’t happen, he has two choices. First, he can go with the former strategy, and become a classic white knight: “clearly those guys who fuck her and never call are taking advantage of her, and I should rescue her from those evil men”. Second, he can become a classic Nice Guy ™ by choosing the second strategy: “sometimes women date hot guys who are jerks! It must be because they are deliberately seeking out jerks and not because, like men, they are sometimes blinded by a pretty face. Bitch.”
So how is this related to sex work?
The Mann Act was a 1910 act forbidding interstate transport of “any woman or girl for the purpose of prostitution or debauchery, or for any other immoral purpose.” The FACT brief describes:
Like the premises underlying this [anti-pornography] ordinance, the Mann Act assumed:
that women were naturally chaste and virtuous, and that no woman became a whore unless she had first been raped, seduced, drugged or deserted. [Its] image of the prostitute … was of a lonely and confused female. … [Its proponents] maintained that prostitutes were the passive victims of social disequilibrium and the brutality of men. … [Its] conception of female weakness and male domination left no room for the possibility that prostitutes might consciously choose their activities.
Note, “The White Slave Traffic Act: The Historical Impact of a Criminal Law Policy on Women,” 72 Geo. L.J. 1111 (1984)
Pretty clear example of the pedestalization of women which pretty clearly harms sex workers. However, the Mann Act had a perhaps unexpected outcome:
Over the years, the interpretation and use of the Act changed drastically to punish voluntary “immoral” acts even when no commercial intention or business profit was involved. See Caminetti v. United States, 242 U.S. 470 (1917); Cleveland v. United States, 329 U.S. 14 (1946).
The term “other immoral acts” was held to apply to a variety of activities: the interstate transportation of a woman to work as a chorus girl in a theatre where the woman was exposed to smoking, drinking, and cursing; a dentist who met his young lover in a neighboring state and shared a hotel room to discuss her pregnancy; two students at the University of Puerto Rico who had sexual intercourse on the way home from a date; and a man and woman who had lived together for four years and traveled around the country as man and wife while the man sold securities.
Note, supra, 72 Geo. L.J. at 1119
Society’s attempts to “protect” women’s chastity through criminal and civil laws have resulted in restrictions on women’s freedom to engage in sexual activity, to discuss it publicly, and to protect themselves from the risk of pregnancy. These disabling restrictions reinforced the gender roles which have oppressed women for centuries.
A law originally passed to “save” sex workers proceeded to condescendingly “save” all kinds of women who have never done sex work, but who didn’t act the way good girls were supposed to act. Stigma against sex workers was weaponized to police the behavior of women who had never done sex work.
In Playing the Whore, Melissa Gira Grant writes eloquently about how “whore stigma” harms all women:
“The whore stigma,” states Gail Pheterson in her 1996 essay of the same name in The Prostitution Prism, “attaches not to femaleness alone, but to illegitimate or illicit femaleness. In other words, being a woman is a pre-condition of the label ‘whore’ but never the sole justification.” Sex workers, along with many people who do not do sex work, are exposed to whore stigma for breaking with, or being perceived to have broken with, what Jill Nagle calls “compulsory virtue.” It’s a riff on Adrienne Rich’s “compulsory heterosexuality,” with which lesbians are made invisible. Whore stigma, Nagles writes, is “a mandate not only to be virtuous, but also to appear virtuous.” As with compulsory heterosexuality, compulsory virtue isn’t just about producing a set of behaviors (fucking men, being a good girl about it), but producing a system of social control (punishing queers, jailing whores). “One does not actually have to be a whore to suffer a whore’s punishment or stigma,” writes Nagle. Naming whore stigma offers us a way through it: to value difference, to develop solidarity between women in and out of the sex trade.
The analogy to compulsory heterosexuality, I think, is an excellent one. While compulsory heterosexuality has disproportionate effects on LGBA people– for obvious reasons– it affects everyone. In Rich’s original essay, “compulsory heterosexuality” is defined broadly, much beyond punishments for lesbian sex. It includes literal forced marriages and men raping women, in which women do not have a choice other than having sex with men. It includes denying women sexuality outside of heterosexual sexuality, ranging from poor or nonexistent sex education to prevention of masturbation to the Freudian elevation of the vaginal orgasm over the clitoral orgasm to literal female genital circumcision. It includes removing women’s options to live a life apart from men by criticism of ‘spinsters’ or denying them careers. It includes the idealization of heterosexual romantic love as the ultimate purpose of and greatest joy in life.
Of course, we observe that– because the majority of people are heterosexual– the majority of women who experience forced marriages, poor sex ed, the idea that heterosexual romance is the purpose of life, etc. are, in fact, heterosexual. Their lives are fundamentally shaped by compulsory heterosexuality, even though they’re heterosexual.
Similarly, many women’s lives are fundamentally shaped by compulsory virtue even though they are not and have never been sex workers. “Virtue” here refers not to morality but to a relatively limited set of issues, mostly related to drugs and sex. We’ve loosened up a bit since the Mann Act era: the virtuous woman probably has premarital sex (although never with someone she doesn’t love) and almost certainly drinks (although she doesn’t get too drunk, and she doesn’t take illegal drugs). Virtue has come to apply to particular sex acts, as well: anal is unvirtuous, group sex is unvirtuous, BDSM is definitely unvirtuous.
Compulsory virtue is closely tied to compulsory heterosexuality, of course. Denying women sexuality outside of heterosexual sexuality is, often, explicitly justified by the fear that it will turn women into sluts or whores (a distinction many fail to make). The circumscription of women’s options– as in the case of the Mann Act– is often justified by the same fear. And the valorized heterosexual romantic love is a virtuous love: sexually faithful and completely lacking in commercial aspects. (Even in Pretty Woman, she quits sex work when she meets her man.)
An unfortunate fact of failing to name whorephobia for what it is is that we miss who is most affected. Melissa Gira Grant writes:
There’s an echo of this in the popularization of whore stigma in a milder form as outrage at “slut shaming.” What is lost, however, in moving from whore stigma to slut shaming is the centrality of the people most harmed by this form of discrimination. There is also an alarming air, in some feminists’ responses to slut shaming, of assumed distance, that the fault in slut shaming is a sorting error: No, she is certainly not a “slut”! This preserves the slut as contemptible rather than focusing on those who attack women who violate compulsory virtue—for being too loud, too much, too opinionated, too black, too queer…
Slut may seem to broaden the tent of those affected, but it makes the whore invisible. Whore stigma makes central the racial and class hierarchy reinforced in the dividing of women into the pure and the impure, the clean and the unclean, the white and virgin and all the others. If woman is other, whore is the other’s other.
Because of this failure, feminism all too often embraces the pedestalization of women. I see this particularly in two areas. The treatment of rape and abuse all too often boils down to “those evil men are harming saintly (white) women!”, which erases male victims, female perpetrators, and women who legitimately did things wrong and were also abused and that doesn’t make their abuse okay. And sex-worker-exclusive feminism often has a frankly condescending pedestalized version of women in which it is completely impossible a woman could choose to do sex work of her own free will. Returning to the FACT brief again:
Finally, the [anti-pornography] ordinance perpetuates a stereotype of women as helpless victims, incapable of consent, and in need of protection. A core premise of contemporary sex equality doctrine is that if the objective of the law is to “‘protect’ members of one gender because they are presumed to suffer from an inherent handicap or to be innately inferior, the object itself is illegitimate.” Mississippi Univ. for Women v. Hogan, 458 U.S. at 725. We have learned through hard experience that gender-based classifications protecting women from their own presumed innate vulnerability reflect “an attitude of ‘romantic paternalism’ which, in practical effect, puts women not on a pedestal but in a cage.” Frontiero v. Richardson, 411 U.S. 677, 684 (1973).
Women will never be freed from the specter of compulsory virtue until the sex worker is no longer an object of fear or revulsion. We must, above all, honor the right of women to make their own choices– whether or not these are choices we happen to approve of. Until people have the freedom to take money for sex without criminalization or stigma, all other sexual freedom will be in danger. As long as liberals are concerned that women are being taken advantage of when they choose to do sex work, conservatives will be concerned that women are being taken advantage of when they choose to suck off a stranger. My feminism will be pro-sex-work or it will be bullshit.
I really liked much of what you had to say, until this part, “Until people have the freedom to take money for sex without criminalization or stigma..”
There is very questionable personal agency in sex work. Women do not choose it freely among a rich brew of other choices. They are drawn into it either by a need to survive, a need to rebel, or a need to repeat childhood scripts. The number of prostitutes who have been sexually abused as children is staggering. Do we now proceed to legalize and destigmatize child sexual abuse too?
Also, virtue, what is virtue? Do we scrap the whole idea of virtue entirely and pretend as if men and women having commodity sex with one another in an economic exchange, devoid of intimacy, love, or human connection, is not somehow sad, tragic, a poor substitute for the real thing?
In this rather convoluted quest for equality, all things are not equal, because it is the woman who has become the commodity, the one who must be compensate for her loss. So we recognize she is giving something up in this exchange and it is not just her time she relinguishes, but also her worth and value, her own sexual needs, her role in the equation between men and women.
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>There is very questionable personal agency in sex work. Women do not choose it freely among a rich brew of other choices. They are drawn into it either by a need to survive
A lot of people are forced to take up jobs they don’t like to survive.
>The number of prostitutes who have been sexually abused as children is staggering. Do we now proceed to legalize and destigmatize child sexual abuse too?
I don’t want to make assumptions about what you mean, so could you please elaborate further on how one thing would lead to the other?
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Escort Maggie McNeil has <a href="“>a very helpful post on her blog to respond to things like this.
“LIE: Prostitutes only do the work because they have no meaningful choices.
TRUTH: 93% of escorts say they like their work for the money, 72% for the independence and 67% for meeting people. And a 2011 study demonstrated that most American escorts are women with “high opportunity cost”, in other words those who have many other meaningful options.”
I’m also interested in knowing who, exactly, you believe that sex workers are “rebelling” against?
“LIE: 85% of prostitutes report childhood sexual abuse.
TRUTH: The original source for this claim was a 2004 study of incarcerated street workers which actually claimed that 45% reported sexual abuse and 85% physical abuse. Furthermore, there are serious methodological problems with the study, which is typical when biased researchers use an unrepresentative convenience sample and then extrapolate the results to a much larger population with which it does not correlate to any meaningful extent.”
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“commodity sex with one another in an economic exchange, devoid of intimacy, love, or human connection, is not somehow sad, tragic, a poor substitute for the real thing?”
Stop stop stop stop STOP.
Firstly, “sex” is not a commodity. It is a service. Sex work is never “buying” (or even renting) a person any more than hiring a physical therapist, or a lawyer, or a ghost writer. It may be a service that you would not wish to perform, but that’s no different than a worker at a developmentally disabled adult home, or a veterinarian’s office, or a mortuary. Is having the skin or sweat of an unattractive stranger touch you any more revolting (or any more deserving of criminal penalties) than changing filled diapers, or scoping animal feces or moving corpses?
Secondly, can we stop with the elevation of sex as being somehow more supernatural than other human activities?
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Thank you!
People who are unhappy about sex-for-money because it “lacks intimacy and human connection” are also either against casual sex, or they’re hypocrites. Neither is attractive.
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Casual sex can have intimacy and human connection.
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But then so can sex work. However I think mutual enthusiastic consent is much more likely in casual sex than in prostitution.
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@itsabeast: Mutual enthusiastic consent can and often does happen without intimacy or human connection. (Well, I guess there’s human connection, but only in a very minimal sense – the same sense in which I have a human connection with the guy who drives my bus today). While intimacy etc e might happen during casual sex, it’s not the point of casual sex, so it’s pretty much incidental to discussions about the morality of casual sex. So I stand by my point.
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I disagree. There is something different about having ones body penetrated than clearing up shit.
What about surrogacy? Do you also see this as no different to manual labour?
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I agree. The only benefit from being paid for sex is money. This comes with a loss in probably every other aspect of a woman’s life which is felt for the remainder of it.
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As NN pointed out above, that’s not true.
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>There is very questionable personal agency in sex work. Women do not choose it freely among a rich brew of other choices. They are drawn into it either by a need to survive, a need to rebel, or a need to repeat childhood scripts.
This is bullshit. That many people say it doesn’t make it not bullshit.
I’ve spoken to dozens of women who were sex workers, and I’ve read the comments of others on online forums, and what I’ve heard is:
– They’re in it mostly because they can make a lot of money quickly and have lots of free time.
– Strippers sometimes strip because they like the energy and freedom of the work environment. You could file this under “need to rebel”, but it’s more of a need for excitement, attention, and low responsibility. Calling that a “need to rebel” is moralizing and patronizing.
– They don’t usually find the work degrading, but prostitutes do find it dangerous, and become paranoid and manipulative.
– Strippers feel more bored than degraded.
– It requires a strong personality, especially to be an independent prostitute.
– It causes them to perceive men negatively, not to perceive themselves negatively.
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“I’ve spoken to dozens of women who were sex workers…”
People often say things, they rationalize their circumstances, but that doesn’t make them true.
Would you want your daughters, your wife, your mother, even your son involved in sex work? I suspect not. It is a demoralizing, exploitative, soul rotting way to make a living. Yeah, a lot of women come away from it perceiving men negatively because they have seen the truth of who and what men are and it is not a pretty sight. Many sex workers turn to drugs and alcohol to cope with the pain.
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If twenty years from now my son became a sex worker I would be happy and proud, assuming he was happy.
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And people often rationalize that things they personally find icky are wrong, and can’t imagine anybody feeling differently about them. Judgment based on talking to sex workers strikes me as vastly superior to judgment not based on talking to sex workers, even if the former is obviously not infallible or incapable of being misleading.
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Well, then, call me an anti-feminist.
I’m very cynical about human nature, you see. And the pro-sex work that I’ve seen (admittedly, very little) has been as pedestalising in its way as the classic “Madonna/whore” dicotomy you discuss.
Take control of your sexuality! Express yourself! Explore your desirability! Empower yourself by taking off your clothes for money! Every woman who wants to be a pole dancer, stripper, or escort is doing it to fund themselves while they earn that college degree (that’s a trope I see a good deal of: ‘this sex worker is not your usual uneducated lower-class no-hoper; no, she’s a nice middle-class girl putting herself through college and is going to get a good job with her degree afterwards’, which is just as classist as the old view) and is not being coerced and is choosing to use this”.
There’s a certain amount of truth to that, of course, but I’m not so sure that exploiting male desperation for money is any better than exploiting female desperation.
How many women are strip club managers and owners, as opposed to men (like this guy I became aware of in a post about Justin Trudeau)? Now, maybe the guy in question has changed his spots and is a fully-paid up feminist very supportive of the women working for him, or maybe he still retains much the same attitude to women (e.g. calling a female reporter a “bitch” for questioning him on his attendance record) and is making money off them.
How many women own and operate brothels and escort agencies, without first having been involved as workers in the sex trade?
Things like the Mann Act are very easy to point at as tools of social control of women, but it does remain the fact that the reason things like it (and the age of consent for sex for women being change in England from thirteen to sixteen) came to be passed was because of very real abuse. Yes, “The Maiden Tribute of Modern Babylon” was muck-raking and moral panic, but it was also true that twelve year old girls could be pimped out by their families, and the men who bought them avoid rape convictions by pleading that they were old enough to consent and the sex was consensual.
There is such a thing as sex trafficking in the modern world. Until we can get rid of coercion, kidnapping, sale and abuse of women and children, I will not be supporting “Yay! Sex work!” and if that makes me Not A Feminist, then I’m Not A Feminist.
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OK, you’re an anti-feminist (you did ask for that). And it is pretty clear that you haven’t read much pro-sex work stuff; very little of it is as you describe. Mostly, the pro-sex work writers argue that the the problems of sex work are increased, or in some cases entirely caused, by stigmatization and criminalization (the two of which are of course inter-related), not that there are no problems in sex work.
And some of your points are just strange. Why does a female owner of a brothel/strip club not count as a female owner if she has a sex work background herself? The logic completely escapes me.
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Things like the Spearmint Rhino chain of “gentleman’s clubs” (and excuse me while I roll my eyes at the very notion that these are “gentleman’s clubs” even in the old sense of somewhere like the Garrick club or White’s), which I have only heard of by repute and in the papers, really turn me off.
Even if they are on the classy end of the scale and do treat their staff nicely. Even if you can make quite a lot of money taking your clothes off for yobbish City boys (the kind who might have aspired to the Bullingdon Club in university, even if they didn’t quite make it, or even if they did). It is peddling fantasy, as the owner says, and if men with more money than sense throw cash at young women who flatter them and milk the johns for every penny, then that’s a choice that is legitimate to make.
But it’s nothing to do with equality and empowerment: I wish we could expunge that damn word. The men still treat the women as fantasy objects that can be purchased. Once the women get older or saggy, they are not going to be dancers. Maybe they’ll hook a rich sugar daddy or even a (temporary) husband. Just like the Bad Old Days when women were encouraged to marry rich!
Yes, there are women who are determined to rise above their circumstances and who use sex work industry to do so, and that’s great. And all they have to do is turn themselves into a plastic fantasy doll – get the implants to swell your boobs to ludicrous sizes, keep yourself rigorously dieting for that tiny waist, grow your hair long, get the lip implants, wear the false nails and hair extensions and sexy lingerie and the kind of make-up that makes you look like the fantasy image.
It’s still peddling flesh for cash and I wish there were a better way for poor women to get ahead. Maybe making it more mainstream and respectable will change things, maybe you really can improve the image of sex work, but I don’t know if underlying attitudes will change. I do think there’s a lot of exploitation involved and I don’t know if it’s possible to root that out.
But hey, I probably suffer from internalised prudery and Puritanism or something. And I should remember that just because something doesn’t appeal to me does not make it wrong 🙂
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You… are just really ignorant about sex work.
1. Strip clubs are one small section of the sex industry, and have their own issues separate from full-service work (aka “prostitution” although sex workers do not like that term as it carries a lot of stigma). Male owners of strip clubs tend to be creepy and exploitative, just like owners of anything, because they have the class privilege to get away with it.
2) It’s much better, in my experience, to work with people who have done the job you’re doing. Former sex workers are much better at running agencies, booking services, and incalls.
3) Wow, you really don’t know anything about sex work, huh? Strippers often work well past their 20s. Escorts (which I have more experience with) are more often 30+ than 21. We just advertise our age as younger because men are terrible at telling ages and because the greater beauty standard is youth-obsessed.
4) Most of us don’t get extensive cosmetic surgery. Some do. How is it your business what another woman does with her body? And if a pro athlete changes their body to be better at their job, is that still horrible pandering to men? After all, more men are sports fans.
5) Nobody (except the butcher) is peddling flesh for cash. (That’s such a creepy way for you to view sex.) We provide services for money, just like a masseuse, therapist, personal trainer, caregiver, etc.. People don’t lose their body when they sell sex, or how am I typing this with my sold-off hands?
6) You know that a lot of jobs require women to wear makeup, right? And heels and fancy clothes? Why don’t you go moralize against actresses. I guarantee they have more arduous beauty routines than me and my escort comrades.
7) There is literally exploitation in every job. So until the Revolution or Singularity or whatever, we’re all just trying to get along in an expensive and difficult world. The fact that you’re all worried that someone might exploit me in a dick-sucking job and not in the food-service job I had before, where I was pushed to work off the clock and denied medical treatment when I got hurt, sounds like you don’t actually care about exploitation except when you want to be shitty about whores. Naturally, we don’t appreciate that.
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Can I just say, fuck yes to The Whore Poet.
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>It’s still peddling flesh for cash and I wish there were a better way for poor women to get ahead.
I wish there were as good a way for poor men to get ahead.
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>There is such a thing as sex trafficking in the modern world. Until we can get rid of coercion, kidnapping, sale and abuse of women and children, I will not be supporting “Yay! Sex work!” and if that makes me Not A Feminist, then I’m Not A Feminist.
I don’t get this. Human trafficking is already illegal, slave work is already illegal. By banning prostitution you’re making it much harder for those who want to do it “morally” while, at best, mildly inconveniencing those who do it “immorally”, since they’re already doing a ton of illegal shit already.
It’s like we’re rehashing all the arguments for the War on Drugs, and now it’s different because reasons.
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“It’s like we’re rehashing all the arguments for the War on Drugs, and now it’s different because reasons.”
Maggie McNeill writes about the corrupting effects of “sex rays” and how people who claim to be rational somehow believe wholeheartedly in the magickal principle of contagion when sex is involved.
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>There is such a thing as sex trafficking in the modern world. Until we can get rid of coercion, kidnapping, sale and abuse of women and children, I will not be supporting “Yay! Sex work!” and if that makes me Not A Feminist, then I’m Not A Feminist.
There is also such a thing as slavery of migrant farmworkers in the modern world. However, no one adopts a strong anti-vegetable stance (at least for that reason).
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The “empowerment” of sex work is bullshit, but that’s not why sex work should be legal and destigmatized. Sex work should be legal because victimless “crimes” are bullshit. Sex work should be legal because that makes it safer for sex workers. Sex work should be legal because it undermines organized crime by forcing them to compete with legal alternatives. Destigmatizing sex work makes it easier for former sex workers to get non-sex work. Destigmatizing sex work makes the sex workers lives better, in and of itself.
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The evidence from Germany is that the criminal underworld still run the vast majority of prostitution and legalising it has not improved safety. I used to be pro legalisation for ha reduction but having seen the evidence I changed mind.
It sadly seems to make sex trafficking that much easier. A sex slave can not even hope for a police raid now as she is assumed legal.
All the sex worker unions seem to be fronts for the porn industry. Its a sad state of affairs
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Another commenter has pointed out that Germany does not have full legalization.
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You are entirely ignorant as to how organized crime works. They will still run the show. Because “they are doing a ton of shit illegally already”, they will be glad to do a ton of illegal shit to any prostitutes who aren’t falling in line with their vision. How exactly will legalizing prostitution stop people who already do a ton of illegal shit from continuing to do a ton of illegal shit? Your argument is flimsy and ignorant at best. Legalizing it would actually make it way, way easier for organized crime involving human trafficking and sex slavery as it removes the police monitoring and replaces it with an overworked and underpaid health inspector. (If even that, cause, you know, they’re doing a ton of illegal shit already.)
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That explains why, today, the alcohol industry is even more tightly controlled by organized crime than it was during Prohibition.
Ever since Eliot Ness stopped keeping tabs on them, those bootleggers have been running moonshine down the Mississippi, shooting their Tommy guns at birds and broads alike, and every paperboy and chimney-sweep carries a hip flask full of bathtub gin. Those clods at the TTB and FDA just can’t keep up!
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Because then sex workers will be able to report people who illegally harm them to the police.
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In a world where banning sex work would indeed lead to the optimal outcome, would you expect criticism of sex work to come from a perfectly feminist position? Would you expect feminist criticism of sex work *not* to come from a pedestalizing, “darn those evil men who are doing this!” perspective?
It seems to me that you could write a version of this article about anything.
For example: a lot of sex-positivity stuff is weirdly rapey and coercive. A lot of feminist pro-sex-positivity stuff puts women on a pedestal as Empowered Sex Goddesses – which is great right up until someone isn’t particularly Empowered or Goddess-y and suddenly becomes an obnoxious killjoy who needs to be reeducated – and talk about how evil patriarchal Men want to control women’s sexuality.
At the same time, sex positivity is basically a good idea, IMO.
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I mean, I do think those kinds of sex-positivity are bad and I’ve written against them before.
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So there’s a thread on Crooked Timber right now discussing the “Left” versus “Liberalism.” In the comments someone tried to outline what they mean by those terms. I’m going to borrow their terminology.
“Liberalism,” as they defined it, was a general belief that people are mostly rational actors and will mostly do what’s best for themselves if left alone, but that this isn’t always the case and society ought to step in to help when it isn’t.
Example of things working as normal- Adam moves in with Steve and the two of them have hardcore anal sex all the time. Under liberalism, we don’t have to ask very many questions. Are either of them being coerced whether by a person or by circumstance? If not, we strongly presume that this is what’s right for them. We don’t need a theory of gender or sexuality or, well, ANYTHING. They apparently made this choice as freely as people typically do, so we presume that it’s how things should be. In fact, under liberalism, state action interfering is presumed to be wrong.
Example of things not working- Marcy makes shoes for a bowl of rice a day. Marcy may have chosen this from her available options, but we notice that her available options are terrible. We presume that she can’t make good choices in her current situation. Under liberalism the state should intervene to improve Marcy’s lot in life, both to give Marcy better leverage in her decision making, and to give her better options to choose between. We might even enrage libertarians by prohibiting her from working for a bowl of rice per day, if a minimum wage law turns out to effectively adjust the incentives she faces in a positive way.
Leftism, as this guy defined it (I’m not wed to these definitions, they just seemed helpful) was a set of political ideologies that reject the notion that society is best conceived of in terms of autonomous people making free choices. Specifically, it isn’t that they believe that there are more Marcys than Adams, it’s that they believe in grand explanatory theories about forces at work in the cultural landscape, like “patriarchy” or “colonialism.” These influence us and prevent us from functioning under liberalism a model of the world, and the right thing to do is work to get rid of them and/or replace them with better social constructs.
Liberalism can be compatible with this way of thinking at times, but not always. Example- Father wants Son to play football and be manly, Son wants to take ballet. If Father beats Son or bullies him, liberalism would object. If Father is just disappointed and that fact makes Son feel bad, liberalism would shrug. But if your thing is opposing gender normativity, both would be objectionable. The first might be worse, but both would be the sorts of concerns considered worth addressing- in fact, they’d both be thought of as different skirmishes on the same overall battlefield.
The post you’ve written up uses a lot of terminology that appeals to me as someone solidly in the “liberal” camp under the framework I’ve used above. But it’s still phrased in terms that would be “leftist” as I used the terms. You identify this social construct- pedestalization- claim that society is in the midst of a battle over whether to accept or reject pedestalization, connect your current argument to historical examples of the concept, argue that it’s a pervasive way of thinking, claim that it causes social ills, argue that those you’re critiquing are exemplifying it, undermining the battle against it, and by implication furthering the social ills, and argue for a “feminism” without that concept, which would therefore include the policy and position stances you support.
The problem is that it’s trivially easy to do the same thing in opposition to your position.
In fact, feminism as a movement already got there, ages ago. Structurally identical arguments can be crafted against social acceptance of sex work using concepts like “objectification.” Accepting your argument would presumably entail either rejecting those concepts, or pruning them down to very, very little.
None of this is to say that you’re wrong per se on the overall point about sex work.
It’s more… team liberalism has a lot to recommend it. You could maybe join us?
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Join us, we have cupcakes… that you can eat, if you want.
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I am not sure why your argument about liberalism/leftism isn’t structurally identical to my argument about pedestalization and the radical feminist’s argument about objectification. You’re *also* providing an explanatory theory about forces at work in the cultural landscape; you are suggesting that it influences people and that we should replace our current leftist thoughts with liberal thoughts.
And given that, I’m not sure why your statement “it’s trivially easy to do the same thing in opposition to your position” doesn’t map to “it is bad to have concepts, because your opponents also have concepts.”
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The point wasn’t “you have a concept and they have a concept, everyone who thinks about the world uses concepts, so everyone and everything is equal.”
It was more “if all you have is a concept and an argument in this form, you have literally nothing of use if someone else has the same thing. And they do. Additionally, either their concept is wrong, or else your concepts can coexist. You haven’t addressed their concept so you’ve not done anything that might convince people of your position over theirs, and if the concepts can coexist that means that your argument isn’t sufficient for your conclusions, because then we’d have two sufficient arguments for opposing conclusions.”
And unsurprisingly, your comment thread is already descending into the “objectification versus agency” failure state where one side yells “that objectifies women!” and the other yells “you’re denying women’s agency!” while trying to undermine their opponents with two sets of dubious statistics (notice how the empirical part of the argument is only used for undercutting defeaters and never positive claims? That’s telling) because when all you have is a concept and an argument of this sort, that kind of yelling is all you can do.
But there is an alternative! Stop worrying so much about venerating competing sets of memes. Instead of arguing that you’ve got some grand concept or whatever that unpacks to nothing but a massively reductive effort to reframe all morally relevant questions about sex work into one framework that can’t possibly accomplish the task you’re giving it and in any case has nothing to obviously recommend it over other competing reductive frameworks…
Why not skip all that and just care about agency directly? Sex work is fine if it’s not coercive because then we can safely presume that people who engage in it are doing so because they know their own business. We should legalize sex work to the extent that we think we can so so without accidentally allowing coercive employment. The question about whether or how far we should do so is now empirical. Done.
No grand theories about Women in Western Culture.
Just… done.
Join liberalism! We don’t have cupcakes but we do have a coherent theory of sexual ethics.
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But are you going to ban cupcakes in order to fight the obesity epidemic?
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Maybe, maybe not. The key is that we’ll decide whether to ban cupcakes based on an actual assessment of people’s empirical capacity to handle their own cupcake consumption decisions, coupled with a realistic assessment of whether such a ban would be effective at achieving our goals, all starting from the assumption that adults, generally speaking, can make rational choices about their diets in the absence of factors that meaningfully influence their decision making.
My guess, based on similar real world decision making processes, is that cupcakes will be fine, crystal meth will be banned, and we’ll draw a highly contested and controversial line somewhere in the middle and leave it to the political process to tug of war over exactly where that line ought to be.
It’s an outcome, and more importantly process, I’m ok with.
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As I use the term “pedestalization” in this post, it translates to “people have a cognitive bias which causes them to see women as wonderful and condescend to or degrade non-wonderful women, including taking legal measures to do so.” I agree that it is a failure mode that people tend to act like that ‘pedestalization’ is doing something rather than individual people doing things; however, I do not feel that I have fallen into this error in this post.
I agree that people should have and exercise agency. However, *furthermore*, I find it an interesting question why people have been limited in their ability to exercise agency, and I think one of them is the cognitive bias of pedestalization.
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I’m solidly liberal, but all the same terms such as “patriarchy” name actual social forces which should be understood and talked about. Likewise “objectification” names a thing that happens to people, which otherwise is hard to talk about.
Which is to say, people are at the same time 1) individuals with preferences and agency, and 2) actors within a social frame. Understanding the contours of that social frame requires a vocabulary beyond that of individual psychology, just as ecologists need a vocabulary beyond bare physics.
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I don’t think the terminology helps. I understand that people want a word for “the way men have historically been in charge of things and their preferences are socially normalized,” or “you’re not considering my thoughts and feelings as much as you should.”
The ONLY group that takes either “patriarchy” or “objectification” seriously as concepts, the ONLY group that uses these terms consistently and in all applicable cases, are sex work and trans exclusive radical feminists.
And there’s a reason for that. The terms as typically used carry a set of false assumptions about the world which, if genuinely believed, turn you into Ophelia Benson. The fact that so any people use these words without turning into her is a testimony to people’s willingness to accept self contradiction, or feminism’s failure to articulate better terminology forcing people to make do, or both.
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The idea that “liberalism” and “leftism” are in any way connected is solely an American artifact.
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I really, really don’t want to claim that these are the only possible definitions if these terms. They’re big tent labels. I just used a framework that seemed useful to me in the moment.
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It comes down to agency.
Either women have it, or they don’t.
Agency is the central problem of modern feminism. Either women get to make their own choices, or society makes their choices for them. The extent to which women are responsible for their choices is the extent to which society is not to blame; but because society must be to blame, women’s agency is erased.
The fruitful ground to have a discussion is in marginal choices. But that’s a subtle discussion, and… well, it would be patriarchal and tone-policing to require subtlety. So instead un-subtle frameworks are erected, such as “microaggression”, which make the discussion impossible to have.
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You’re not wrong.
I’m a libertarian. I don’t want the government telling people what they can do with their bodies. I’m a meta-ethical utilitarian. I don’t see chastity as a virtue.
But.
Why does every single issue have to be framed by feminists in the language of hatred and bigotry?
It’s not enough to just say “people have a right to body autonomy”, or “chastity isn’t a virtue and acting like it is harms people”. You’ve got to take it one step further and invent a new kind of bigotry called “whorephobia” so anyone who disagrees on those issues can be seen as engaging hate speech.
I don’t think people who think chastity is a virtue are evil, hateful mustache twirling villains. They’re just wrong. Maybe we could even convince them they were wrong if feminism wasn’t running around calling everyone bigots all the time and completely discrediting itself in the eyes of half the population.
This sort of schismatic, polarizing rhetoric isn’t just unhelpful, it’s also just not true.
People can be wrong about virtue without being bigots.
They can be wrong about nature-nuture without being bigots.
This is why I can’t get behind feminism. Because feminism seems incapable of disagreeing with anyone, even other feminists, without saying they’re evil, or hateful, or bigots. Every brand of feminism insists on laying out the One True Doctrine of Real Feminism and everyone else who has slightly different ideas is the patriarchy.
Sex-negative feminists are real feminists. They just disagree on this point.
I know, I know. Someone will dismiss this as “tone argument” or “not all men” or whatever.
Feminism has a schism problem and this kind of thing is why.
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As long as sex workers are considered disposable people and appropriate prey for serial killers, whorephobia is a useful concept.
As long as cops can rape sex workers with impunity, whorephobia is a useful concept.
As long as engaging in sex work can put you on a lifetime registry, have your kids stripped from you, prevent you from ever obtaining certain job or determine where you are allowed to live, whorephobia is a useful concept.
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Who is saying that’s ok? Who is saying sex workers are disposable people and appropriate prey? Who is pro cops-raping-people?
I’ll give you the third one. That’s a good point.
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I first became aware of the term “whorephobia” in the context of people accusing Julie Bindel of it. She may be horrifically wrong about everything but saying she’s bigoted against sex workers or considerers them disposable people or is in favor of them getting raped is just nutty. I’m not saying that you’re saying that about her, I’m just talking about how this constant throwing around of accusations of bigotry blurs lines that we should make more distinct and polarizes and makes debates about identity instead of ideas.
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I used the word “whorephobia” once in this post, as a synonym of “whore stigma”– that is, specifically talking about people who don’t like sex workers very much. I do not think that not liking sex workers very much means you are an evil hateful mustache-twirling villain. There are many groups of people I do not like very much (some justifiably, some less so) and I do not consider myself to be an evil hateful mustache-twirling villain.
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OK. You know what you meant better than I do.
But would you say that I’m wrong in general to think “someone is being accused of bigotry” when I hear “*phobia”?
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Well, yes, I do think whorephobia is bigoted. I just don’t think that being bigoted means you are an evil hateful mustache-twirling villain. (I myself am no doubt quite bigoted.)
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huh. That’s not what I expected you to say. Could you elaborate?
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Do you think anybody in the world is a moustache-twirling villain?
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Intellectually no, but by revealed preference anti-refugee people and people who don’t support EA because of overpopulation concerns or wanting to help people in their own backyards.
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@ozy: Ah well if we’re talking about effective beliefs vs self-perception, I’d say the same about people who want mandatory invasive medical tests on sex workers.
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I can’t stand everything being cast as a hatred or fear of someone or something when it is merely a disagreement.
The classic is transphobia which is levelled at anyone who believes humans are sexually dimorphic onwards. It becomes a slur.used to discredit your opponent . I’m not as yet considered anerexiaphobic for considering aneroxics as thin rather than fat as they identify. I am not being accused of robbing women of agency for not respecting their desire to starve themselves.
Phobia means fear which gives quite the wrong sense in whorephobia ast most people are not scared of whores, though many men really do have a hatred towards them .it is usually though women who are accused of this, specifically women who belief prostitution isn’t great for women. You may accuse them of a form of misguided maternalism but this comes out of sincere belief and care for women not a hatred.
Should domestic violence be made legal to enable those women prepared to put up with it to not keep having their partners arrested and charged pressed against their will? I mean it’s their choice right?
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@Katie
It’s not really true nowadays that “phobia” always means “fear”. The standard word for “bigotry against gayness/gay people” is “homophobia”, even though I don’t think most people believe that homophobes are necessarily afraid of gayness. Homophobic beliefs can include “my child should stop being gay because being gay is bad for your mental health and I want my child to be happy” – it’s driven by love for the child together with a mistaken belief, rather than (primarily) fear of anyone, but I and I think most people would still call that homophobic.
Words like “transphobia”, “biphobia”, “whorephobia” seem to have been coined by analogy to “homophobia” (people who know the actual history of these terms should correct me if I’m wrong). In all these cases, “___phobia” means “bigotry against ___”, which doesn’t have to be fear or even necessarily hatred, it can be damaging stereotypes combined with love, sometimes.
I don’t think there’s a principled difference between “having a different opinion” and “bigotry”. Like, “women should stay home and obey their husbands” is a different opinion from mine. It’s also a sexist opinion. Similarly, from my standpoint, “trans people don’t need to be trans, they should get over it and identify with their assigned gender” is a different opinion from mine, and a transphobic opinion. And “nobody should be allowed to do sex work because it’s so damaging to the psyche” is a different opinion from mine, and a whorephobic opinion. (Though to be honest I’m not sure if I actually want to apply this language of bigotry to a group of people defined by their line of work rather than something more intrinsic to them. But that’s a separate issue.)
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Agreed. I think it is unfortunate that we’ve landed on using “-phobia” to talk about this, because indeed fear is often not the root problem. Needless to say, this usage has caused endless pointless debates on this topic. On the other hand, language evolves in uncontrolled ways, and expecting to hammer it down to perfection is a fool’s errand.
Anyway, you’re not “afraid.” We get it. If you’re against trans folks, you’re against us. We’re gonna notice and use the words we have.
If a fair number of people find you transphobic, you’re probably transphobic. Things are what they are. Labels are shorthand.
If you pay a consequence for this, well cry me a fucking river you poor sad soul.
Won’t anyone think of the bigots!
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Organized bigots will have a field day with the idea that “If a fair number of people find you (X), you’re probably (X).”
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I’m pretty sure the value of X matters.
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(Another example of the tendency to abstract to the point of nonsense, and then pretend it’s clever.)
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It’s possible that the value of X does matter, and it’s possible that your value of X is appropriate and the ones other people might use aren’t. But if you want to make that argument, you’ll have to actually, you know, make the argument. Facile snark won’t cut it.
I think the value of X probably doesn’t matter, at least in the range of Xs we’re talking about here. Character traits and beliefs aren’t up for a vote; you either have them or you don’t, regardless of what other people tell you.
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On a population level, it is indeed true that if most people think you’re a woman, then you’re probably a woman. It’s just not necessarily true for individuals, at least not if you have additional information about the individual such as “is unhappy when people call them a woman”.
Not sure if something like this applies to “if lots of people think you’re a bigot, you’re probably a bigot”.
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That seems to be somewhat similar to “taxation is theft” and “if you’re not pro-open-borders you hate foreigners, and are literally Hitler”, as well as “if you’re not donating to AMF, you’re the kind of person who would eat popcorn watching a child drowning in a pond”. Every movement has an incentive to give in to this “us vs them” mentality, and very few, if any, manage to resist it.
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That’s true. “taxation is theft” libertarians drive me up the wall. Not because I’m pro-tax, but because they’re making me look bad by association with their hysterics.
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Whorephobia is a term that sex workers have been using since the 70s. Ozy didn’t make it up.
And anyone who supports policies that send the police to our workplaces and homes, where they often rape us, steal from us, get us evicted and our kids taken away, is a whorephobe. Julie Bindel has advocated for those policies many times. Just saying “well she didn’t mean for that to happen, she just ignored all the sex workers saying over and over that it was happening” is crap.
And if your attitude is ” Who cares what happens to the whores as long as it makes Virtuous Women feel better,” then you consider us disposable.
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Oops, didn’t mean to imply that Ozy made it up. Just that it was made up.
Maybe you could fairly claim social conservatives are bigoted against prostitutes. They certainly stigmatize it. It does seems strange to me to call someone bigoted against a profession.
But saying feminists are bigoted against prostitutes is nutty. They are calling prostitutes victims of exploitation and coercion, not hating on them for being sexually immoral.
On Julie Bindel, you’re inferring “advocates for policies that hurt prostitutes” -> “is bigoted against prostitutes”. It doesn’t follow. She disagrees with you (and me) about what policies hurt prostitutes.
The attitude you describe is extremely moustache-twirly and even almost all social conservatives would be horrified to have it ascribed to them.
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@Lawrence D’Anna
Many social conservatives believe that the best way to help LGBT people is to make them stop being LGBT, or at least to stop them from living a life consistent with their LGBT identity. I think this is absolutely motivated by bigotry, and absolutely parallel to the idea that the way to benefit people who are currently sex workers is to make them stop being sex workers.
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@tcheasdfjkl
That’s an interesting example, but I think it proves too much.
It seems like by that standard every disagreement about morality must involve bigotry.
Are LGBT people bigoted against Christians because they want them to change their religion? Are vegetarians bigoted against meat-eaters? Are people who try to gain converts for their religion bigoted against people outside of it? Are EAs bigoted against practically everyone?
I think for some individuals the answer is yes and for others the answer is no.
I don’t think every* conservative that wants gays to stop being gay is motivated by hatred. Certainly many are. But some sincerely disagree about morality and nature-nurture without being hateful.
There are always going to be profound disagreements about what constitutes a life well lived, what actions are right and wrong. These disagreements tend to breed hatred, but they don’t make hatred inevitable, and we shouldn’t infer hatred from disagreement.
* #NotAllChristians. Seriously though, I’m saying P(not-bigoted | pray-the-gay-away) >= .1
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“I think for some individuals the answer is yes and for others the answer is no.”
I think that is correct. I did not mean to argue that “people would be better off if they weren’t X” was necessarily bigoted against X, only that it can be. That is, I was disagreeing with your claim that it doesn’t make sense to say that feminists are bigoted against sex workers because the feminists think sex workers would be better off if they stopped being sex workers.
But I think we’re using different definitions of “bigotry” here. To clarify, I’m using “bigotry” as a general term for things like “racism”, “sexism”, “homophobia”, “whorephobia”, etc. This includes all the things I mentioned in my other comment below, like implicit attitudes and unconscious bias and mistaken generalized beliefs about a group. It does not necessarily imply hatred.
Under this definition, any “pray the gay away” is by definition bigoted because it is anti-gay, so it is an example of homophobia. I agree that it’s not necessarily hateful, though it does have pretty terrible effects.
I admit I might not have a very principled definition of what groups one can be said to be bigoted against, though. *files this into things-to-think-about-sometime*
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Would you include islamophobia? Is it bigoted to try to convert muslims to atheism?
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Yes, I do think Islamophobia is a kind of bigotry. However, I wouldn’t automatically call trying to convert a Muslim to not-Islam Islamophobic. It depends on why you’re doing it and how you do it.
I guess I would say the same about attempts to convince a sex worker to stop doing sex work. Whereas I think trying to convince someone not to be gay is probably homophobic no matter what? Hmm.
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Both feminists and conservatives actively advocate for laws that put sex workers in tremendous danger. Neither group sees sex workers as capable of deciding for ourselves what our needs are, or asks us what legal framework would allow us to work safely. Both groups dismiss violence against us with “Well, what did you expect, straying from the Virtuous Path like that.” Both attempt to send the police into our homes and workplaces , where they arrest us, steal our money, extort us, rape us, etc.. We are afraid to be anything but scrupulously secretive about our work, because there is just so much shit that gets piled on out sex workers: eviction, removal of children, prison, harassment, assault, involuntary commitment, medical bias against us, partner abuse, etc..
It’s a bit frustrating reading here because people seem to think the problem is something like “try to convince a sex worker to quit” and not “use powerful legal or academic or political position to advocate for laws that make us demonstrably less safe, or out current or former sex workers to get them fired from non-sex jobs, or ignore reports of police abusing their power to rape and extort sex workers, or getting our safest advertising and community websites shut down, or kidnapping us and keeping us in locked “rehabilitation centers” without trial, or sending white earnest Christians to drag us out of our workplaces in front of TV cameras while viewers at home are told that adult workers are child sex slaves, or police refusing to investigate missing or murdered sex workers because they’re just whores, or our partners, children, and associates risking being charged with trafficking or pimping …” I could go on but it’s way late and I have work tomorrow.
I wish my only problem was that people tried to talk me into quitting. I’m not afraid of an argument, I’m afraid of bring raped by a cop, or being assaulted or stalked with no recourse, or my girlfriend being arrested because I help her financially. I’m afraid to have kids because it’d be a constant risk of having a disgruntled ex report me to child services. These sentences are getting long because there are just so many examples of real, tangible harm.
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There is indeed a failure mode of social justice rhetoric which involves combining the following two behaviors:
1. using words like “racism” and “sexism” to refer to things other than obvious discrimination (e.g. minor everyday biases, implicit assumptions in people’s language, the way things are sometimes structured in a way that benefits one group and hurts another, political beliefs that seem to rely on a bias about groups of people)
2. declaring anyone who can be called “racist” or “sexist” to be a terrible person not worthy of engaging with, worthy only of denunciation and punishment
If you do both of those things, you have exactly the situation you describe – huge numbers of people are labeled evil and hateful, there is a lot of infighting and schisms, and people are generally disproportionately punished for relatively minor harms. This happens in certain circles to various extents.
But it’s also a social justice cliché that “everyone is conditioned to be racist/sexist/etc., this is normal, it doesn’t mean you’re a bad person, it just means you have prejudices that have negative effects on the world and you should work on that”. You could argue that in practice, people will sometimes express this cliché and then attack people disproportionately anyway. But that doesn’t have to happen, it doesn’t always happen, and it certainly doesn’t happen here.
Importantly, saying that something is a manifestation of a type of bigotry doesn’t mean that the people doing it are evil. You don’t actually enter the failure mode until you combine both step 1 and step 2. (Arguably step 2 is suboptimal even without step 1, but much less so, and step 1 without step 2 is pretty unobjectionable in my opinion.)
From this perspective, Ozy’s answer above is pretty much exactly what I expected. This is exactly how non-toxic social justice is basically supposed to work, I think.
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Ozy, what’s your opinion on the Swedish model vs the New Zealand model?
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I mean, isn’t the swedish model basically “compassionate” sex-negative legislation?
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Making it illegal for people to buy your product is not what I’d call “compassionate”.
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That’s why I put “compassionate” in quotation marks (I’m told this signifies sarcasm). The main thurst is that “prostitution is bad, mmmkay”, but acknowledges that women might be “forced into it” for whatever reasons, so they’re not penalized for it.
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Women are still penalized under the Nordic model, particularly women who aren’t willing to be the Poor Fallen Woman Forced Into Whoredom. Additionally, trans women are often caught up in client arrests, landlords are required to evict sex workers, and social services discriminate. See the Petit Jasmine case: her kids were given to her abusive ex because she was a sex worker; later, the ex stabbed and killed her. He was able to do this because nobody believed her claim that he was dangerously abusive. Why did no one believe her? Because she was a whore.
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Full decriminalization, please.
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Decriminalization is insufficient. Legalization is where it’s at.
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My understanding is that most sex workers’ rights organizations support decrim, not legalization, because of the fear that legalization will lead to regulation that harms sex workers.
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This seems somewhat appropo
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3496602/Sex-clubs-Austria-forced-issue-itemised-receipts-customers-listing-services-provided-new-tax-laws.html
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From what I know, the government can still fine you for decriminalized acts. Which, if the size of the fine is sufficient, is going to do a lot of harm to sex workers.
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So, neither?
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We want full decriminalization. No fines, no gross Nevada-style brothels run by rich men who are the only ones who can afford the licenses, no penalties for working together, no harassing our advertising sites, nope nope nope
The police are not trustworthy when dealing with sex workers and we don’t want them anywhere near us.
( Whether the police are trustworthy when dealing with anyone is another argument, but definitely they’re the biggest predators on sex workers, as shown by a bunch of studies .)
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How is this different from legalization? If there are no legal penalties for it, isn’t it legalized?
I’ve seen this same distinction made by marijuana supporters, and I haven’t been able to figure it out there either. In the states where marijuana actually is decriminalized, when you get caught with it, you get a fine. But the people shouting “decriminalization not legalization” seem to believe decrim means a legal, above-ground market for pot with no penalties for users or sellers, and no involvement of regulators or corporations.
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It apparently can sometimes mean different things in different contexts, apparently inlcuding the context of drugs, but in the context of sex work, “decriminalization” refers to eliminating the laws prohibiting sex work, while “legalization” refers to installation of a regulatory regime permitting sex work with restrictions under approved circumstances.
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@Protagoras: Interesting. In any other context, I think that’d be called “regulation”.
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The Swedish model still sends the police into our workplaces. Do you think they just arrest the client and say “okay, you’re good” to the sex worker? No, they steal from us, extort us, and rape us. Under the Nordic Model sex workers still get evicted from their homes – I believe the actual term used was “Operation Homeless” – and forbidden from working together for safety less we ve charged with pimping each other.
NZ still has problems with stigma, but I could report a rape by a client there and I couldn’t where I am.
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It saddens me that in New Zealand they still use the term ‘prostitute’. Even the law that was passed to decriminalise sex work was called the ‘Prostitution Reform Act’, and the sex workers’ collective is called, amazingly, the ‘New Zealand Prostitute’s Collective’.
Their laws may be good but they’ve got a long way to go when it comes to language.
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I don’t see how running on the euphemism treadmill is going to meaningfully help things. You need to fight the idea itself, and you can’t do that by pretending it doesn’t exist. Destigmatizing sex work is better done by making it clear that there’s nothing pejorative about being a prostitute. Nothing wrong with being a whore.
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@Inferential: Most sex workers’ organisations (outside NZ, anyway) consider the word “prostitute” to be an insult.
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That’s because the word “prostitute” is an insult. The word “prostitute” is an insult because the idea of exchanging money for sex is insulting in these societies. Any word or phrase you try to replace “prostitute” with will become an insult because it refers to the exchange of money for sex. You can’t solve the underlying problem by painting it a different color; yellow or purple, the hate machine is going to keep on hating.
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ID may be right. I prefer to attack the problem from another direction. When I want to condemn someone for being willing to do anything, however horrible, for money, I try to make sure to call them “mercenary” rather than invoking any of the words for sex workers that have been traditionally and inappropriately used to make such insults.
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@Ortvin Sarapuu:
I’m not really familiar with New Zealand English, but couldn’t it be that “prostitute” simply doesn’t have those connotations to that degree in New Zealand? It’s common for different dialects to assign a word subtly different meanings, and I don’t think it makes sense to look at New Zealand English from an outside perspective and decide that it is wrong.
Or if “prostitute” does in fact have those connotations in NZ, reclaiming insults is a long and venerable tradition among oppressed people and a perfectly good strategy, just as legitimate as coining new, respectful language.
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Regarding “prostitute,” not all of us consider it a slur, just enough that it’s a safe bet to avoid it. It’s also just not very accurate – what counts as prostitution legally is different from place to place. The umbrella term “sex work” is useful here. Plus, reclaiming language is a thing, like my use of “Whore” in my handle. (Also I am a dork and love puns.)
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That reminds me of the people claiming that racial slurs like “kaffir” in South Africa are just South African English. I’m not buying that either.
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No, wait, you mean the NZ model. Never mind.
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You seem to be arguing that liberals should not only treat sex work the same as any other kind of work (which would seem to be a pretty defensible argument) but they should actually go further, and refrain from even treating it like that, when you say this:
I may be misreading your intent, but concern that people are being taken advantage of when they try to do any sort of work is common among (left-)liberals. Maybe stigmatization of sex work is enough of a problem that it deserves special treatment compared to, say, working at a coffee shop, but that seems like it would require a real argument that hasn’t been made.
(In general, I think it’s weird how in these conversations it’s common for people to lose track of the fact that suspicion of commerce is actually a routine aspect of people’s politics.)
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The message I got from that was more along the lines of “Choosing to do sex work isn’t a bad thing, and when even liberals think that is conservatives will be much worse and stigmatize things that make even less sense to worry about.”
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I think the unspoken inference is “As long as liberals are more concerned that women are being taken advantage of when they choose to do sex work than when they choose to do any other type of work”.
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I support decriminalizing selling sex but I don’t think full decriminalization is a good idea. The sex workers I’ve known liked the fact that they could work for themselves and make good money, but in Germany where they have full decriminalization everyone either works in megabrothels where they have to pay $150 a night to the brothel owners or work on the street where prices are through the floor. Also, I’m worried about health and safety regulations- legalizing something that couldn’t meet any kind of osha standard seems like setting a bad precedent. Finally, I don’t like the way pro decriminalization people ignore sex trafficking survivors and exited women. Lots of them support a modified Nordic model and I don’t want to ignore their arguments. It seems really hypocritical when people talk about respecting women’s agency and then call Rachel Moran a puppet of the rescue industrial complex.
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If wrestling, boxing, and surgery can meet OSHA standards, why couldn’t sex work?
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Sports and so on “meet OSHA standards” because OSHA standards 1) apply primarily to the ancillary activities going on around the sport such as operation of elevated equipment, etc, 2) in spite of asserting that they have the authority to regulate professional sports OSHA tries to avoid conflict by almost never actually regulating professional sports in any meaningful way, and 3) OSHA regs are customized by category of activity.
Not that I necessarily think the “but what about OSHA” line of reasoning is very useful here. Just, FYI. The biggest reason sports squeak by OSHA, in my opinion, is because OSHA turns a blind eye to them.
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Germany doesn’t have full decriminalization. The problems that Germany and other legalization models like Nevada have with exploitative brothel owners exist because only rich and well-connected brothel owners can get licenses to operate, giving them an effective monopoly on legal employment for sex workers.
When people advocate decriminalization, they generally mean something along the lines of New Zealand’s laws, which regulate advertising and street prostitution (you can’t solicit sex while in line of sight of a residence, IIRC), require licenses for brothels or escort agencies that employ more than 4 workers, and has some general health and safety regulations, but generally stays out of the way of any sex worker that wants to work by herself (or with a partner) out of her own apartment. For obvious reasons, this increases their bargaining power relative to brothel owners and so reduces exploitation.
This article has a pretty good description of what Germany’s prostitution laws are actually like, and how they differ from what most people advocate when they advocate decriminalization.
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Since when is a trafficking survivor helped by being arrested? This is a red herring. As for people who are no longer sex workers, they won’t have to live under the setup some of them favor. I feel bad for a lot of them – you can be as Repentent as you please, but you’re still not getting hired for a good job if your past comes out, for instance. Also SWERFs have a nasty habit of milking traumatized former sex workers for tragic stories that help push an anti-sex work agenda, then leaving them penniless when they can’t be exploited any more. See: the shameful treatment of Linda Lovelace, who was horribly abused by her husband during the filming of Deep Throat, then used as the basis for Dworkin and other radical feminists’ campaign against porn. The radfems got money and prestige, Lovelace was left in dire poverty.
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Also, just so you know, Rachel Moran is very likely a fake. She claims to have worked a very specific area for a very specific period of time, but none of the other street-based sex workers who were on that street remember her at all, and it was a relatively small and tight-knit community. Either she wasn’t there or she worked for such a tiny amount of time that one has to question her expertise.
Andrea Dworkin also made a lot of hay over, like, 5 minutes in the industry, and soooo many of the slumming-type ” How did a nice girl like me become a WHOOOORE” articles are of people with similarly brief stints. (If you want my credentials: over a decade in the industry doing a variety of types of sex work.)
But suppose Rachel Moran is real and really had the terrible experiences she claims. Why should we prioritize her desire for revenge on clients over a vastly greater number of current sex workers who suffer because of the stance she advocates? I had some terrible experiences working food service; should we outlaw eateries and kidnap fry cooks into rehabilitation centers and arrest people who want to go buy a cheeseburger instead of cooking at home like virtuous folks? No, that would be ridiculous.
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You’re absolutely right. Even in industries that seem to be innately irreducibly dangerous, like forestry work, construction or sea fishing, nobody ever suggests simply abolishing the industry as a solution. It’s only prostitution that has to demonstrate itself to be 100% benign in order to be allowed to simply exist.
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I sort of want to know what “honor the right” and “choices we happen to approve of” entail here. Engaging in sex work is… I’m not sure I “approve” of it, but I don’t disapprove of it. I’m thinking of women who make choices a genuinely disapprove of, though: for a woman who chooses to vote for Trump, I guess I honor her right to make her own choice even though I disapprove of it (although I’d be tempted to say I “respect” rather than “honor” her choice — distinction without a difference?). As for a woman who chooses to emotionally abuse her daughter, I don’t think I do honor her right to make the choices she does.
Or are we saying we honor a woman’s right to make her own choice without necessarily honoring any particular choice she makes? If you start from the position of disapproving of sex work, then does this sort of “honoring the right to make choices, not necessarily approving of specific choices” change much?
The version of “honor but not approve” choice that makes most sense to me is “I wouldn’t want this for myself,” i.e., honoring the right of a woman to be a sex worker even if you wouldn’t want to be a sex worker yourself.
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De-lurking to attempt to participate without too much wild eyed prejudice.
I’m about ready to be convinced that de-criminalisation is the most just way forward.
But I have reservations, and I’m a long way from being “pro-sex-work.”
Away up-stream, Fisher said: (see above @ March 23, 2016 at 6:40 pm)
… “sex” is not a commodity. It is a service.
This is certainly what my mother taught me, in the evangelical Christian tradition.
I respect my mother, I respect her beliefs and her decisions, but it is a real stretch for me to become /pro/ a belief in sex-as-service as a feminist act.
Whether we are talking about commercial exchange for providing sexual services, or traditional Christian marriage.
I’m grateful, endlessly grateful, for the writings of feminists which alerted me to the fact that “sex” can be re-defined. Beginning with de Beauvoir – and perhaps this is the crux of her disagreement with Sartre – for whom sex always involved one subject and one person being objectified.
A little further along, taradinoc says: (@ March 25, 2016 at 3:01 am)
…If wrestling, boxing, and surgery can meet OSHA standards, why couldn’t sex work?
I’d love to hear from people who have experience with sex work that meets the standards of universal precautions as they apply to surgery (and nursing, midwifery, all health care).
I certainly aim to situate myself against the dehumanisation of sex workers.
And I’m probably not rigorous enough in recognising how much easier it is to belittle and dismiss the autonomy of people who choose sexual/ised labour as a job (in comparison to women who chose the labour of “helpmeet” marriage).
Curious (and hope I haven’t missed the boat with this delayed response).
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I found this late comment and decided to try to clear things up.
Okay, look, you’ve misunderstood about the service thing. “Sex” is a category term for a bunch of actions. Like I can make a rubbing motion with my hand; if I do it with a rag on a floor, it’s cleaning or polishing; if I do it on a muscle to provide relief from knots and tension, I’m massaging; if I do it on genitals for the purpose of arousal, stimulation, and climax, I’m doing a sexual act. Providing a sexual service means doing sexual actions, yes, but the service is in the experience provided: listening, teaching, creating rapport. The connection between sexworker and client is a real thing, created by the skill of the worker and carefully bounded by the professional nature – the serviceness – of the work. (Much like therapists.) The sexual actions are part of the service but not the whole thing.
Those same sexual actions can be very non-service-y in different contexts! Doing sexual actions for mutual pleasure with my girlfriend is not at all the same as doing sexual acts at work. The motions of the body are similar but the subjective experience is totally different. Sex acts taking place as part of a service in no way diminish sex acts as as expression of love, or lust, or procreation, recreation, catharsis, whatever. It’s not zero-sum.
As far as OSHA goes, having our work forced underground makes it hard to gather data on safety, and hard for us to band together to demand safer workplaces. However, we do have a vested interest in our own safety. Speaking for myself, I use a heck of a lot of barrier protection at work ( condoms, gloves, dental dams) and am not unusual. More importantly, I can take off work when I catch a cold so I don’t spread it around. How many food service workers come to work sick because their jobs will fire and replace them if they stay home? Rather than compare us to housewives all the time, compare us to other workers too.
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Thanks, Whore Poet, for your reply.
I hear your frustration re. comparisons to housewives, but do think OSHA standards for housewives is a pretty important feminist battle (or the private equivalent, if it’s easier to keep domains separate).
And the comparison in my mind was actually with nursing – that being my current source of income. I think your honest answers here are really important for me grappling with questions about sexual/ised labour. I balk at embracing a pro-sex-work position when the people engaged in that labour will be expected to tolerate safety standards that I would never tolerate for myself, in my own profession. It seems like too comfortable, middle-class pontificating from a distance – hooray for edgy diversity, but for myself I’m demanding the same high standards the privileged have always assumed. Hence my question, which you’ve addressed, can the standards I expect in my industry be expected in yours. It is good that you are able to work safely, and I hope you are able to constantly improve workplace safety as I expect to in my profession.
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What do you think of arguments that legalizing prostitution leads to an increase in sex trafficking? Like this study? Or this one? Which are actually the only two studies I could find on the matter. Apparently not a popular topic of study.
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Both of the papers concede that the data is highly problematic, but they both conclude (one tentatively, the other more confidently) that because the results are what they expected, it’s probably good enough. I am not particularly impressed.
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