On Tumblr there has been a slight flareup of the “is it okay to not be attracted to trans women?” debate. So I have decided to write up an etiquette guide for the “not attracted to trans women” side, in the hopes that we can compromise on “people who are not attracted to trans women continue to exist, stop being such freaking douchebags”. (I am not a trans woman myself, although this is based on my observations of and conversations with trans women.)
Shut the fuck up about it. I would conservatively estimate that about 95% of statements of “I am not attracted to trans people” are pointlessly hurtful. Imagine that you aren’t particularly attracted to, say, muscular girls. Are you going to comment on a blog post about creatine supplementation for women with “muscular girls aren’t sexy”? If a muscular girl complains about how she can’t get a date because men are threatened by her bicep size, are you going to respond with “stop trying to make me have sex with you! Rapist!”? Are you going to, apropos of nothing, remark to your friends that muscular girls are inherently unattractive? Are you going to make jokes in which the punchline is a man having sex with a muscular girl? No. Of course not. That would be terrible. Don’t do that shit to trans girls either.
Don’t define your sexual orientation in a trans-exclusionary fashion. “I don’t want to interact sexually with penises”: great, fine, whatever, you do you. “I am not attracted to trans women because I am a lesbian and lesbians are only attracted to women born women”: NO. Bad. No cookie. You see, there are a bunch of other lesbians who are attracted to trans women. (Indeed, some of those lesbians are trans women.) It is not your job to decide that they are somehow not lesbians. This is not interfering with your ability to say no: after all, as a lesbian, you say no to women all the time. You can totally have a preference not to sleep with brunettes, or dancers, or Yankees fans, or whatever you like. But just like you can not want to fuck a brunette– while other lesbians do– you can not want to fuck a trans girl– while other lesbians do.
Some people have attempted to define ‘bisexual’ such that women who jack it to both April Flores and Bailey Jay– but have never been attracted to a man– are bisexual. Such absurd redefinitions I will pass over in silence.
Be polite when rejecting people. When someone hits on you that you do not find attractive, say: “no thanks, you’re not my type.” Do not list off everything you find unattractive about them. This basic point of etiquette is all-too-often lost on people who have been hit on by a trans woman, who feel the need to explain that their rejection is because she’s trans. (And, of course, I should hope that I do not need to explain to anybody that it is entirely inappropriate to respond with insults, slurs, or the use of violence.)
It is possible that you might make out with a trans girl without her saying that she is trans. Most trans people disclose before they make out with anyone, but some do not. Maybe she thought you already knew, maybe she was anxious about disclosing, maybe she feels that she shouldn’t have to disclose. When and whether to disclose that you’re trans is a very personal decision.
Compare it to a size queen. He might want to know the penis size of any prospective partner before he makes out with them. However, his partners are not doing anything wrong if they fail to say “by the way, I’m three inches long”. You don’t actually get to know every detail of someone’s genitals before you make out with them– unless, of course, you ask.
Nor– if your true rejection is “I don’t like interacting with penises”– is it particularly relevant. You didn’t have to interact with any penises. You made out with a cute girl whom you presumably found attractive; knowing she has genitals you don’t like doesn’t change that, any more than knowing that her fetishes are incompatible with yours would. On the other hand, if your true rejection is “I don’t see trans women as women on an instinctive level, which makes me feel like kissing her means I’m gay, which is the Worst Thing In The World,” then you maybe have some homophobia and transphobia issues to sort through. However, you can still be polite to her while you sort through them.
This is one of the rare times when it’s appropriate to say “sorry, I’m not interested in having sex with people with penises”– you have to explain why you’re suddenly not interested in hooking up. If you are still working through your homophobia/transphobia issues, you can leave it at that; if not, feel free to add “you are super-cute” or even “but I’d like to keep making out.”
Be open-minded. I know lots and lots and lots of guys who used to not be into trans girls. But then they internalized that trans girls are women, got over their worry that it would make them gay, and found a trans girl who was really freaking cute– and suddenly they find her cock super-hot. It happens.
That might never happen for you. It’s okay. But if it does happen, don’t freak out and say “I couldn’t possibly be attracted to a woman with a penis! I’m a straight guy! There are rules!” To be fair, this is almost entirely a self-punishing state of affairs, in that now there is a cute person you want to date that you’re not going to get to. So I am not inclined to push it too hard.
Thing of Things 
It’s amazing to me how much of this (excellent) advice boils down to: learn to apply basic kindness even when you feel icky. This is not an instance that would be hard for me, but there are definitely others. Why do humans seem so unable to apply their principles to new things? My guess is some basic, biological level xenophobia, and we have to very consciously write new groups into our felt sense of “my people, people like me.” What do you think?
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All this precisely.
You know, we’re like half-a-percent of the population, maybe. Now, if you hang in certain circles, there will be more. If your Tumblr-space overlaps with my Tumblr-space, you prolly know maybe a dozen or so of us.
Which, if your social space is full of trans gals, well there is probably a good reason for that. Embrace it. We’re weird, cool, and awesome. If you have a lot of trans friends, then you’re probably also weird, cool, and awesome. Yay!
But still, I doubt we form anywhere near a majority of the women you know.
Anyway, if I hit on you, and you ain’t interested, cuz I’m large and ogreish, plus — you know — I’m me (she says with a wry smile), well fine whatever. Reject me like you’d reject any other girl. But there is no reason you need to set out your global opinion of trans gals. We hear this shit enough already, every time we read some horrible comments section somewhere. It’s tedious and alienating.
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On, and big-giant-enormous pet peeve: don’t use the terms “AMAB” Or “AFAB” (or similar) to talk about your attractions. These are not “identity labels,” at least, not exactly. They were invented to talk about our specific life histories. They’re important, but the point of those terms is to talk about arbitrary and unfair assignments. If people just switch over to using those as functional replacements for “man” and “woman” — well you’re stealing our labels to enact the same old transphobia. You are not “trans supportive” for using those labels this way. In fact, you’re the opposite.
Sometimes I break this rule, but only to talk about specific forms of transmisogyny that occur in queers spaces. If you’re not trans, not queer, don’t occupy those spaces, then you don’t really need to worry about that stuff.
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On the be open-minded part, in my experience, nerds of the “take everything super literally variety” often don’t distinguish between a virtue and an expectation. In other words, to say “X is admirable” does not mean “You are bad if you don’t do X.” To be broad-minded in your attractions is admirable. To be truly trans-accepting is a really good thing, for both you and them cuz love and sex are awesome and why not have more of both? But life is a journey, the self is a work-in-progress, blah blah blah, you’ve heard it before. Anyway, having a good attitude about this stuff is priceless.
I turns out difficult to have a “Don’t feel pressure but this would be really good,” conversation. But still, don’t feel pressure. All the same, it would be really good.
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One last point, dating-while-trans is really freaking tricky. We face minefields often quite different from cis gals. In fact, I often feel a certain envy for (most) cis women and their compared-to-mine uncomplicated love lives (#notallciswomen). But still, my romantic world is not a desert. It is not a trackless waste of unending pain. We do find love. Some of us, if we’re fairly attractive, can actually be quite in demand. The fact is, more people want to have sex with me than with whom I want to have sex. I’m single right now, not because no one wants me, but because I don’t want them back. The point is, don’t ever pity us. We shine as bright as any.
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Your advice seems… misguided. This might be a way to navigate Tumblr, but when it comes to actual life, you just imply that certain “No”s are wrong, without providing any alternatives.
Our society has enough issues with people saying “No” without adding more to the pile. Any reason for a “No” is a good reason, and shouldn’t be questioned.
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I… didn’t say any no’s were wrong? I said certain ways of rejecting people were wrong, but “say no kindly” implies that you’re still saying no.
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You don’t say “Say no kindly”, though. You instead focus on unacceptable ways of saying no, and suggest, through “Being open-minded”, that saying no might be wrong – and never emphasize at all that people still have the right to say no. And you never say how to say no kindly, you make no attempt at educating people at how to do it right, only at telling them what they might do is doing it wrong.
This is a… scrupulosity trap? I’m not sure what to call it. It is likely to contribute to a culture wherein people feel guilty about not wanting to have sex with somebody, though.
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[I think I’m going to post this again and again]
On the be open-minded part, in my experience, nerds of the “take everything super literally variety” often don’t distinguish between a virtue and an expectation. In other words, to say “X is admirable” does not mean “You are bad if you don’t do X.” To be broad-minded in your attractions is admirable. To be truly trans-accepting is a really good thing, for both you and them cuz love and sex are awesome and why not have more of both? But life is a journey, the self is a work-in-progress, blah blah blah, you’ve heard it before. Anyway, having a good attitude about this stuff is priceless.
I turns out difficult to have a “Don’t feel pressure but this would be really good,” conversation. But still, don’t feel pressure. All the same, it would be really good.
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Orphan: I’ve always thought open-mindedness meant *considering* a proposal, not accepting it?
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MugaSofer –
It’s a little more complex than that. In any situation in which you suggest somebody be open-minded, what you’re implying is that their rejection isn’t good enough, that they haven’t thought about it enough, and if they just thought about it a little bit harder, they’d be more inclined to come to your way of thinking. The suggestion of open-mindedness is nothing more than a rejection of somebody else’s reasons.
The correct response to the suggestion that you’re close-minded about who you date/have sex with is that you don’t have to justify who you find romantically/sexually attractive or why; that’s nobody’s business but your own.
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“The correct response to the suggestion that you’re close-minded about who you date/have sex with is that you don’t have to justify who you find romantically/sexually attractive or why; that’s nobody’s business but your own.”
I don’t think anyone’s contesting that. It’s not about guilt, or other people somehow deserving someone else’s attraction. It’s a suggestion purely for the benefit of the recipient, which they are free to ignore, and one that I doubt many people here would advocate someone offering in response to being rejected.
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itsabeast –
“No, refusing to date trans people is not OK.” per Mugasofer elsewhere in the thread.
Yes, people are contesting that, including, by my perception, Ozy.
There are two arguments going on here; one is to be nice, which nobody is really contesting, except insofar as that I think Ozy completely fails to specify how to be nice. (An understandable failure, given that, had Ozy done so, somebody would have disagreed angrily about it.)
The second is the idea that “trans” isn’t a legitimate reason to reject somebody as a romantic/sexual prospect, to which I respond, very firmly, that nobody gets to say that a reason for rejection is illegitimate.
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Well, it is manifestly transphobic, so whatever. Transphobic people are a dime a dozen. I’m not going to worry about one more.
The point is, though, it doesn’t need to be an issue in your life. Since you’re entitled to reject romance from anyone you want, and since as a practical matter trans women tend not to be super aggressive in approaching men — for the most part — it is highly probable you’ll never be put into position to explicitly reject a trans woman. I mean, it could happen. But so what? Just politely decline. If she presses the matter, wants to dig in to your reasoning — well first off that’s kinda rude most of the time. Unless she’s already your friend or something, it seems kinda out of line. It’s far better for everyone if we learn to politely decline and politely accept rejection. Nothing good comes from making this process difficult. But anyway, if she asks, make a judgement call. You’re a grown up. You certainly understand how this stuff can be hurtful. Do you want to be hurtful?
But all the same, that probably won’t ever happen to you, and you can happily go through your life just not asking out people you know are trans.
blah blah blah
But what it happening here is different. Here you are digging in your heels and making sure you express your right to reject us as a whole, all of us, regardless of how kind, how pretty, how amazing, whatever. “Trans” is a big-black-mark. That’s kinda shitty. Furthermore, it is completely unnecessary. Put bluntly, it makes me not like you (although that ship kinda sailed already). It might make others not like you.
You can do what you want, but people will judge you according to your character. Makes it a point to pre-commit to rejecting trans people reflects on your character, as it should.
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veronica d –
I have no interest in people who have gender as part of their identity, which includes the vast majority of cis people as well. That’s a major part of what my attraction is predicated on; androgyny of personality, or more broadly, an individualistic rather than an identity-oriented self. It doesn’t matter what sexual organs somebody has, or what sexual organs they want – insofar as biological sex goes, I’m bisexual.
Trans people are out, not because I think they’re the wrong gender, but because they’re -any- gender. It’s not which box they’re in, it’s that they are in a box at all.
And other preferences? Are fine. It’s fine if you don’t want to date somebody because you’re not entirely comfortable with all of this, too. It’s fine if your attraction to somebody is based on their biology. All of that is fine.
Moralizing about people’s sexual preferences should be left to religion.
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But we’re not moralizing about your preferences. We moralizing about how you present them to people who already feel heavily marginalized. Those are not the same. In your case, if you don’t want to date binary-indentified people (which is how I read what you are saying), I cannot imagine anyone will care. (Well, maybe homophobes or bi-phobes will care. Which I’m sorry. They are wrong. They should stop.) Anyway, nothing about that invalidates my womanhood. I can’t think of anyone who would feel you have marginalized them.
I mean, it seems like a pretty small dating pool, but if you make it work then good for you. I’m not bothered. Is anyone?
That’s really a different category from otherwise-totally-straight men saying, “No way I’d date a trans woman.”
Then don’t! Just shut up about it.
Anyway, in queer utopia none of this would matter. But we are not in queer utopia. We are in a mostly hetero-normative world. Even gay and lesbian culture, while they reject some aspects of straight culture, clearly exist in response to that. They are structured according to their “outsider” status.
I don’t live in queer utopia. Nor do I find it possible to isolate myself so much that I can pretend I do. I have to deal with the actual sex/gender system in which I find myself. In that system, it helps a lot if people can be more thoughtful about how they talk about their attractions, when they specifically exclude people who already get tons of shit cuz who they are.
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veronica d –
My preferences lead to an incredibly small dating pool, yes. But other things figure into that far more, and the things I find attractive tend to… correlate with the absence of a gender identity. The absence of a gender identity is, actually, the easiest thing to find, thanks to a culture that increasingly hammers on people from a very young age that Gender is a Bad Thing.
The fact that my justification is satisfactory shouldn’t change how you view my rejection. Justification shouldn’t be necessary.
Very few people, regardless of how satisfactory their answers would be if they were sufficiently educated, are in fact educated enough to give satisfactory answers.
(As for haters… eh. I’m not giving people who don’t like me space in my brain. If they ever pose a physical threat, I’ll maim or kill them, but I’m not going to waste my life being unhappy that other people don’t approve of me, because I’m not in High School anymore and I get to choose my social circles.)
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But what it happening here is different. Here you are digging in your heels and making sure you express your right to reject us as a whole, all of us, regardless of how kind, how pretty, how amazing, whatever. “Woman” is a big-black-mark. That’s kinda shitty. Furthermore, it is completely unnecessary. Put bluntly, it makes me not like you (although that ship kinda sailed already). It might make others not like you.
You can do what you want, but people will judge you according to your character. Makes it a point to pre-commit to rejecting women reflects on your character, as it should.
But what it happening here is different. Here you are digging in your heels and making sure you express your right to reject us as a whole, all of us, regardless of how kind, how pretty, how amazing, whatever. “Redhead” is a big-black-mark. That’s kinda shitty. Furthermore, it is completely unnecessary. Put bluntly, it makes me not like you (although that ship kinda sailed already). It might make others not like you.
You can do what you want, but people will judge you according to your character. Makes it a point to pre-commit to rejecting redheads reflects on your character, as it should.
Sorry, I just like taking rhetoric and changing the variables.
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Come on, Flak Maniak, be fair. The rhetoric specifically specifies that some groups are already taking extra abuse and that it’s this extra hard-timey-ness that means you should cut them a break in terms of predeclarations of attraction.
You know, like creepy guys!
Me, I’m actually down with upfront rejection of creepy guys. People have the total right to reject, or precommit to rejecting, anyone they choose in the romantic arena, with detailed reasoning or no reasoning at all.
It’s just that, as you note, quite a lot of people start by splitting the world into Groups We Like and Groups We Don’t, declare behavior they want to see, then make up rules that seem to justify this in most cases, and stubbornly ignore reality when it brings up examples which match their claimed rules, but violates the Like/Not Like siding.
(The Advanced Version, of course, is making up categories like Structural Privilege which remain ever undefined so they can be applied to only the Groups We Like always and forever, but those do at least tend to be confined to rhetoric rather than explicit codes of behavior.)
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But wait, “creepy guys” is a terrible example, insofar as there are no firm boundaries of what that entails. Which is to say, who here is creepy?
Well, I mean, one person’s “creep” is the next person’s “awesome nerdtastic sexpot.”
I’m sure plenty of people find me a bit creepy. I’m not sure what to do about that, except I try to pay attention to the comfort levels of other people. But in the end I have to live my life.
Anyway, almost by definition I won’t date “creeps,” but I can’t really draw a precise boundary around that term. Pick a random person. Do I think they’re a creep?
I dunno. It depends on a whole bunch of stuff, much of it situational. In any case, this hardly feels like a pre-commitment.
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A nerd-culture-aware person who fills their dating profile with “no creepy guys” is probably caught up in the bad parts of the gender war. I don’t know what to say. If they asked me, I would tell them to change it. It causes harm and does little good, far better to emphasize the positive qualities you seek.
So … don’t be like that person … that makes sense, yes?
If a “normal” has that on their profile, I dunno. I have no idea how normals think. They’re maybe flailing around for some strategy to dissuade the army of “torso shot guys.” Good luck.
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The question is not can you publicly pre-commit to not dating some group of people. Obviously you can. The question is, is it helpful? To whom? Is it hurting people? How much? Compared to what?
Regarding your internal feelings, I question the wisdom of such pre-commitment. But then, your heart is your own. I cannot stop you. It’s your life. But all the same, it pretty damn hard to find happiness at the best of times. Closing doors to potentially wonderful things — that’s on you. Choose. Live.
But still, Ozy’s post isn’t actually about this. The topic here is how should you talk about these things.
Look at it this way, if I make a big public display of saying, “I’ll never date a gamergate person” — well it’s probably true. I am very unlikely to end up dating a gater, just as they’re very unlikely to want to date me. But what is my purpose in stating that? What am I communicating? It’s not like it would change much. So far as I know not a single gater has asked me out.
Why does anyone need to publicly single out trans people for preemptive rejection? There are so few of us.
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Plus, just as a practical matter, if your dating profile reads like hyper-critical checklist of requirements and disqualifications — well that comes off really bad to a lot of people. In fact, to many it comes off as a bit (dare I say it!) “creepy.”
It raises the question, does this person really want to meet some individual, with whom they will develop an organic relationship that grows and changes, or are they looking for someone to fill some prefigured script of “romantic partner,” which might not at all be who I am on the inside — even if I fit all the elements of the checklist?
I dunno. I think nerds probably do too much of this stuff, to a degree that makes their social lives more difficult than they need to be. If that checklist is also needlessly hurtful to other people’s feelings …?
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I’m curious about the propriety of specifying that you’re not into trans people when rejecting someone. As a straight guy, if I were hit on by a guy, I might reply by specifying that I’m not interested in guys, not just by saying “you’re not my type”. Is this considered rude? If not, why is it different for trans people?
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I think part of the difference is how personal it feels – being told that you’re being rejected for a property that you share with approximately half the world makes it very clear that it’s really not about you.
Being told that you’re being rejected for a property which you share with a much smaller group, where there’s a cultural background of hostility towards the idea that anyone might be sexually attracted to someone with that property is a lot more likely to make it feel /more/ personal.
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Fair enough. My thinking was that specifying the reason for the rejection made it clear that it wasn’t personal, but I guess that’s not necessarily the case for trans people.
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@shemtealeaf — It’s probably not going to make an enormous difference, at that precise moment of rejection. It’s like, being rejected hurts all the same for every reason. So yeah. But still, we trans gals have to deal with this big-huge-internalized “we are invalid” message — like beamed at us constantly by the broad culture. Which, it’s not only trans women. Fat people get this same message. Nerdy people get it. A bet a lot of people on this forum have got it as some point.
Honestly, I suspect it’s a little worse for we trans gals — maybe. I mean, it hurts for everyone. But still, I think this might be a more pernicious kind of invalidation. It’s ripping at our entire sense of a gendered self.
I’m not sure. The psychology of gender is elusive.
But the point is, we don’t need additional reminders that transphobia exists. We already know. Working past that fact is a super-big-ongoing struggle.
Another thing, when you reject someone, you don’t need to give a reason. You don’t actually need to. If the person hitting on you pressures you to give a reason — well that’s on them. Handle that however you think is best. But to volunteer that information, like unrequested — it doesn’t make it easier.
This has everything to do, I think, with reinforcing an existing social message. Like, imagine rejecting a woman by saying, “Sorry hon, I don’t like skinny blond women who are super popular cheerleaders” — assuming she was skinny, blond, and the captain of the squad.
Okay, like, who cares. You’re probably not going to hurt her feelings all that much, since society beams a constant message to her: “You are wonderful and pretty and everyone loves you and you deserve it.” She’ll probably just think you’re weird. Whatever.
(Note I’m not suggesting that you should reject her that way. My point is, I doubt it will hit her as hard as “sorry I don’t date trans women” hits me.)
Regarding your point about gay men, I think the difference between trans women and gay/bi men is — well — sexual attraction is quite different from gender. While gay men are a minority, they know that most men are straight. So “I’m not gay” shouldn’t be invalidating the same way as “I don’t quite see you as a valid member of your sex/gender” is. Can you see the difference?
Myself, I once had a cis woman reject me because she “wasn’t into women.”
Right! On the one hand I was disappointed, but on the other that was fine.
So anyway, a simple, “Sorry. Not interested,” should be enough. If she pushes you for more information, then do what you need to do. No one is suggesting you outright lie.
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I appreciate the detailed response. Your reasoning makes sense to me, but I’ll definitely need to give that some more thought. I’m basically cis-by-default, so some of the issues surrounding gender identity aren’t very intuitive to me.
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Shem, isn’t that a special case, though? Almost every other quality seems hurtful – if I say that I’m not into redheads or republicans or women with small chests or lawyers, I’m probably going to hurt someone’s feelings.
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I don’t entirely endorse this argument, but I also don’t entirely reject it:
Because nothing in a gay person’s ideology/worldview/sense-of-identity needs to reject the existence of straight people, but a trans woman’s worldview typically will need to uphold the proposition “trans women are women” and “I’m not into trans women” is sounds too close to “I’m not into trans women because I’m into women and trans women aren’t really women”.
Debates about whether or not trans-exclusionary sexual preferences are ok are really debates about whether or not trans women really are women, or debates about the Overton window around that topic.
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To put it another way- the number of trans activists so radical as to accept literally no possible areas of life in which it is valid to separate “afab women” and “trans women” is very small.
Nearly all trans activist will agree, for example, that this should not be concealed from your doctor, because “afab woman” versus “trans woman” could be medically relevant.
Other issues are morse contested. Some trans activists believe will that trans women ought to be reticent in conversations related to female socialization in their culture, and ought to take care not to assert possession of experiences they perhaps did not have, or at least had in a markedly non central fashion. Other trans activists think this is pure bigotry.
The debate is over whether or not people’s base sexual responses, private sexual conduct, and interpretations of their own sexuality are areas in which the distinction of “afab woman” versus “trans woman” can be valid. One side thinks it can be, the other does not.
Interpretations of the “it can be valid” perspective that don’t entail that trans women aren’t real women are possible, actually. But no one wants them and a lot of work has been put into politicizing language until it’s very hard to express a lot of ideas. These are all just words and social categories. The underlying sexualities of the people at issue are what they are, there’s no in principle reason they couldn’t be described.
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It’s the “less than” aspect of it. When someone says “I don’t like men” or “I don’t like women” there is rarely an undertone of “I think men are inherently inferior to women” and hopefully not an “I think women are inherently inferior to men.” When people go “I don’t like trans women” they usually *do* mean ‘I think transgender women are inherently inferior to cisgender women, so I assign zero value to them as dating partners.” They may not think it consciously, but if they look hard enough fears over things like social status and judgement, the examples of trans women they’ve seen in the media as jokes, pathetic nobodies and weird bogey men all come flooding in. Living as someone who’s branded that way and then confronted with that branding every time someone says some hurtful thing in dismission is adding insult to the injury of the overwhelming likelihood of dying alone because nobody will ever be interested. You don’t have to date us, but we’d prefer it if you didn’t take the opportunity to hurt us unnecessarily in the process.
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You’re not going to get far on this on etiquette grounds because you’re papering over the actual disputes.
There are a lot of people who feel that their sexuality is incompatible with having a sexual partner who is trans. They feel like certain segments of the trans community are attacking them for this.
Their sexuality is what it is, I suspect. Dubious apologetics aside, I think it is very unlikely that their sexuality is more malleable on this score than the gender identity of any given trans person.
And they feel attacked because they are. Sometimes very loudly and explicitly, other times by insinuation. Even this post appears at times to adopt the “you must alief that trans women are women full stop not just in social role or treatment but even in the most private and intimate expression of your personal sexuality or else you have transphobia issues you ought work on” approach.
These messages can be particularly galling if you’re progressive enough to have accepted “don’t tell other people how their sexuality/ gender identity/ whatever” really works, or why they should change it,” as a moral norm.
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Ozy is not telling you to change your sexual attraction — and this is exactly what I was saying, about hyper-literal people who cannot distinguish a virtue from a requirement. Instead, we are saying that how you talk about these things can be hurtful, and it is trivially easy to talk about them in different ways that are less hurtful.
I mean, there is always the lingering pain of transphobia. That isn’t your fault. Nor is it going away any time soon. But still, you get to play a role in how this feels to us.
So look, if you want to play the “I get to be 100% blunt all the time game” — I mean, I’ll play it. Cuts both ways, though.
I find that the people quick to complain that the trans community is “attacking” them — well, when I take a close look I’m not surprised.
“I am coldly logical and brutally honest” and “I don’t like paying social costs for my opinions” — choose one.
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There is some incredible irony in me interpreting Ozys comments as being critical of people for their own conception of their own sexuality, you interpreting me as claiming that Ozy is telling people to change their sexuality, and you somehow telling me that I am the one being hyper literal.
You might consider reviewing the final paragraph of your post, and considering how frequently you benefit from others treating you more gently than you endorse treating them.
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95% of *statements*, not 95% of *people who are not attracted to trans women*. “Nice people shut the fuck up about their lack of attraction to trans people when this is not appropriate” is perfectly consistent with 95% of the statements about this being douchey. Assholes are noisy.
I am not certain that there are a huge number of people who are solely attracted to AFAB people for reasons other than “believing, on a certain level, that trans women are men and trans men are women”. Birth assignment is a *really fucking weird* thing to care about, and while sexuality is enormously diverse, I would be very puzzled if birth-assignment-based sexuality unrelated to cissexist aliefs were more common than, say, balloon fetishism.
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I’m sure you are right. No seriously. This is correct. Trans women are not the only people on this planet with this kind of problem. Which, I think it is notably harsh for us, but we are not the only ones.
A good rule-of-thumb is “Be careful about how you talk about your attractions to a class of people who are widely thought to be unattractive/unlovable/invalid.”
It’s hard enough to be such a person. Don’t add to it.
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“Obviously there are assholes here, eager to make the existence of trans people the punchline to a self-aggrandizing joke, but in my experience they are not 95% of the people for whom AF/MAB is a useful summation of their sexual preference. ”
I am confused by this, because I honestly can’t think of any way in which AF/MAB is a useful summation of someone’s sexual preference that isn’t based in transphobia.
I can understand preferring particular genital configurations, and I can understand being attracted to the set of secondary characteristics associated with an estrogen or testosterone dominated endocrine system, but given that we’re specifically talking about a group of people with a fairly high propensity to change those things, how is birth assignment a useful measure?
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OK, let’s see if I can get the tags right this time.
Just to be clear, I’m talking useful summary here. The A*AB terminology reflects, to me at least, the fact that there are a lot of seconary and tertiary sexual characteristics which show up from growing up and going through adolescence with a particular set of hormones (and most likely also a particular set of expectations around habits, activities, knowledge around grooming, etc.)
When most people report being attracted to women, they’re not making a statement about chromosomes, they’re generally making a statement about a large, interconnected set of attributes, which is strongly correlated to the target of their attraction growing up marinating in estrogen, and strongly anticorrelated with said targets growing up marinating in testosterone. When someone says they’re attracted to men vs. women, they’re generally talking about a huge tangle of size, shape, bone structure, facial hair, body odor, voice pitch, genital structure, and a dozen more factors, all of which are strongly influenced by how you grew up.
To speak beyond generalities, I can only use my own attraction as an example. And for me, well, I identify as straight, despite having had male and genderqueer sexual partners, because all of my partners (and basically everyone I’m attracted to) fall into a certain range of height, body shape, facial structure, absence of facial hair, and so on. This includes many people who are not and have never been female, and who have indeed grown up marinating in testosterone and continue to do so…but those people are very much a minority compared to the number of people I am attracted to who were assigned female at birth and grew up marinating in estrogen.
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Patrick, IMHO:
I think generally “how to say no to an advance without hurting someone’s feelings unnecessarily” is a good topic. And I think Ozy’s right that telling a transwoman that you’re not into transwomen is probably unnecessary and likely to hurt her feelings, so that’s enough for me.
Thinking about it, shemtealeaf’s “I’m not into guys” (or women) is a pretty special case. In almost every other case, something like “I’m not into short/heavy/white/black/herpes positive/redheaded people” is going to be more hurtful than just “Sorry, I don’t think it would work for us – you are hot, though!” is probably going to work better.
Even things like “I don’t date smokers” or communists or whatever are basically intended to apply some shame to the behavior.
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I don’t have an objection to that part. If someone’s into you and you’re not into them, of course you should try to let them down in a way that will accomplish the job without being unnecessarily painful for them.
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I don’t think there’s a request for alieveing(?) that trans-women are really women.
I mean, if you add “because they’re mentally ill and might hurt themselves if you don’t/do” after each point, the overall message stays more or less the same.
I mean, Ozy would probably disapprove of it, but in general the guidelines would still work.
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Being unable to edit is doing wonders for my percieved ability to communicate in English.
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Am I the only one really weirded out by this sudden assumption that trans girls all have dicks?
I’m attracted to tons of trans girls!
I also happen to dislike dicks, to the point where merely having a dick can be a massive turn-off. (Not always. Not sure why.)
I can’t help but wonder if 4chan won some kind of war to redefine “trans girl” as “trying to trap people into sucking her dick” while I wasn’t looking? When did bottom surgery fall into the same don’t-exist memory hole as trans men?
[Meanwhile, 96% of self-identified trans women want bottom surgery, according to the first survey I pulled off Google.]
… but, I mean, yeah, this basically good advice. Just weird that you don’t call out the fundamental assumption that “I’m not interested in trans women because I don’t like dick” makes sense.
>Are you going to make jokes in which the punchline is a man having sex with a muscular girl?
I’m sure I’ve seen jokes like these … [terrible jokes. Terrible, terrible jokes. Every time one is told, a fairy dies.]
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@MugaSofer — Most trans women don’t get bottom surgery, for various reasons but mostly financial. Therefore, most trans women you meet will still have a penis. So yeah. That’s a thing.
Look, I really-really-really don’t expect anyone to date me who doesn’t like and accept my physical body — for all of its features. I mean, it is a compromise. I’ve dated people where, physically, I didn’t like 100% of them. But so what? I liked enough. It can work.
But the dick thing? Your choice.
Some trans women, a fair number, would prefer not to use their genitals during sex, at least not until they reach a position of high trust. Others want to use their genitals all the time.
I mean, cis people also have various relationships with their genitals. So it’s not like trans folks are some weird-alien species here.
(Myself, I’m okay using my genitals. I’m also okay with not using them. It’s possible to discuss these things and find ways to make stuff work.)
(I mean, once you are in a relationship with someone you should definitely be super honest about stuff like this. If you’ve built a high trust situation, then all is good.)
(There are lots of ways to have sex. If you’re a “Only PIV counts” person, then you are limiting yourself. Again, your choice.)
The point is, you OKC profile doesn’t need a “no trans women” or “only AFAB people” line. That’s transphobic and alienating. If you don’t like me as an individual, say no. If you don’t like my junk, well trust me, you won’t see my junk until we’ve talked about this.
If you put “no fat chicks” on your dating profile, then you’re a fucking douchebag. It is the same for us.
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“If you put “no fat chicks” on your dating profile, then you’re a fucking douchebag.”
Hmm. Not sure I fully endorse that part. It seems like dating profiles are meant to pre-screen for people that you’re attracted to, and the rules should be somewhat different there. I agree that putting that at the top of your page with that phrasing is rude, but surely a dating profile is an appropriate place to state your preferences? Just don’t be a dick about it and reject people the way Ozy says if a fat person happens to message you.
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Sure, pre-screening, but do you expect to be approached by so many fat women that it is a problem? Just decline. If she doesn’t have a picture and/or seems circumspect about her body type, then gently inquire. But be cautious. Words hurt.
Also, it she asks you why you are uninterested, or otherwise doesn’t give you an out, well that’s different.
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>The point is, you OKC profile doesn’t need a “no trans women” or “only AFAB people” line. That’s transphobic and alienating.
That’s my point, really.
It’s REALLY bizarre to me that the debate has become framed as “sexual attraction is about gender ~uwu~ IF YOU DON’T LIKE IT THEN FUCK YOU” vs “well, I for one think that it’s OK not to be attracted to penises if that’s your life choice, so NO [expletive deleted]’s here please”. Reminds me of that comic with the little friendly Hitler.
No, refusing to date trans people is not OK. No, this doesn’t mean you have to date individual trans people. No, this doesn’t mean you have to particularly like dicks. What’s not to understand?
… yeah, I mean, technically, most trans people haven’t had enough surgery (by their standard.) Most people are ugly! Doesn’t mean I’m gonna put up a fuckin’ “NO PEOPLE PLEASE” sign on my dating profile!
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Like, I can talk about how I approach this. First, there are people I am definitely attracted to, in the sense that I see them as pretty much awesome from tip to tail. Everything about them lights me up. I want to touch, kiss, hold. Now, it turns out I’ve actually only been with two people who were, to me, at this level. Neither worked out that well. (The first was in high school. It didn’t work cuz back then I was a flake. The second was recent, and in this case she was a flake.) (Long story.)
Second, there are people that I am overtly not attracted to, in the sense that, if I think of being intimate with them, it’s a bit revolting.
I mean, that word is horrible. OMG I would never say that to a person. But feelings are feelings. I suspect most people feel something like this at some point or another.
But not all people. I’ve met people who really do seem to have broad tastes — I mean both in word and in deed. I’ve seen it with my eyes. My ex-wife, for example, claims that she cares way less about appearance than she does about personality. From looking at the wide variety of body types and genders she has dated, it really seems true.
I think this makes her better than me, a bit. Where she finds ways to be deep, I remain shallow.
I make up for it in other ways. Plus I work to not be shitty to people in any case.
Okay, but most people don’t actually fall into these two sets. Most people, including most people I end up dating, are in group three: those who are attractive in some ways, but who leave me cold in other ways. Normal people. Most of us.
I suspect I fall into this range for a fair number, at least among those I don’t repulse. (I doubt many people find me in group number one, except maybe my recent ex-g/f. I dunno. She seemed quite taken by me. I was as surprised as anyone.)
Okay, so, we have some attraction levels. Perhaps yours are different. That’s fine. But still, it comes down to yes please, maybe (if they’re cool), and nope.
As an aside, a definitely can become a nope if they turn out to be a terrible person. For example, the recent-flake-out woman I mentioned, I don’t think I’d give her another chance, unless she had a very good explanation for her behavior. (Which, as I said, long story.)
Okay, so here is my point. I have some idea what characteristics tend to place people, for me, into categories one or three. I know what I really like. I know what I don’t like.
Or at least I have some idea.
But I’m not going to tell you. Why should I? What is gained by that, compared to what harm it might do? But more, why should I fixate on these properties? Why should I pre-commit? Is there anything gained by saying, “I shall never like person type X”?
The thing is, my brain doesn’t need help making these decisions. It makes them automatically, each time I see a person. I can trust my brain. It just does it.
As I encounter people, my brain immediately and automatically does a fine job accurately feeling attraction or (sadly, sometimes) repulsion.
Or something in between, in which case personality is key.
######
I don’t expect anyone to want to date me, if their brain sorts me into their category two, the repulsion category. Nor do I expect anyone to treat me as category one, unless they authentically feel that. I’m quite okay playing the relationship game according to people’s natural response to me.
It’s really the only sensible way to approach this.
Which, I wish I was prettier. Many women do. I also wish I was less shy, more outgoing, more charming, on and on. Who wouldn’t want these things? But for people to dishonestly fake an attraction? Good grief no.
That said, if you ever need to reject me, you don’t need to invalidate my gender. Just reject me. Say, “No veronica I’m not really interested. Sorry.” It’s not that hard.
I’m a big girl. I’ll deal.
I might cry. Not your fault.
#####
I am a woman. If you don’t believe that you can fuck off sideways.
As a society, we’ve long been pretty okay with hetero people being openly het, and gays and lesbians being openly gay and lesbian, and bi folks being wonderfully bi. Yay. There is a long history of this stuff. Over time communities have developed around (some of) these sexualities. This all seems good to me. In any case, as someone said above, being rejected because the person has an incompatible sexuality doesn’t seem to hurt that much. It doesn’t feel personal. There are no serious demands that everyone become bi.
(Although, being bi is awesome!)
But trans-ness, body type, race, etc. — these things are not the same. They operate at a different scale. They feel very different.
If you meet me, if you encounter my body, you will feel something about it — assuming you notice me at all. Whatever you feel, you feel that about a woman. If you feel revulsion, well then you are revolted by a woman. Your unconscious mind made that choice, just as it makes a choice for any person. You don’t need to explain the specifics. I don’t need your rejection accompanied by your gender theory. It doesn’t help. In fact, it can hurt a lot. Rejection hurts enough already.
If it’s about my junk, well I’m pretty open about my junk. (I have a penis.) If that’s a problem, I personally want to make that easy for you. I want to give you an out, so we can both avoid the awkward situation where we go from hawt-yes-I-want-you to nope-ewwww-get-away.
That would hurt a lot. I don’t want to be hurt that way.
If that puts me in your nope category, well fine. Many things might. The fact I’m six-foot, 240 pounds might also put me there. The point is, I don’t need to know. You don’t need to justify. It doesn’t help.
For all I know I’m in your category three, the maybe-yes-maybe-no category. Maybe you think I’m too loud. Maybe you’re not looking right now. Tons of reasons, which don’t make me feel shitty about being trans.
Different trans women handle this stuff differently, particularly the junk issue. But keep in mind, we’re not all that common. You don’t need to explicitly lay out your junk-attractions to hold at bay the throng of amorous trans women coming for you. In fact, many of you might go through life never needing to really address the fact. (Half a percent of the population.)
Plus, you don’t need to pre-commit. Your brain will effortlessly make the decision, should the need arise.
It can be a really awkward, vulnerable situation for everyone, if you find yourself put on the spot. If you handle it with sensitivity, well, what else can anyone ask for?
Do your best. Plus, trust your brain. It might surprise you.
(I’ve been on estrogen for a long time.)
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For some definitions of homophobia and transphobia, I guess? There seems to be one heck of a difference between consciously and publicly denying that trans women are women, and telling people that being gay is horrible vs having sex-based intuitions about gender overridden by conscious ideas about identity in social interactions, and being irked out by the idea of gay eroticism, also overridden by conscious ideas about sexuality in social interactions. Saying that to not be a bad BAD *BAD* person one must not only share and act according to an ideology, but also bellyfeel it seems like an overkill, and not a particularly nice thing to say to scrupulous people, who might go: “OMG, so if a rather masculine-looking friend of mine comes out as a trans woman, and I don’t immediately see her as an absolutely regular woman, someone whom I might potentially be attracted to, I’m no better than those who send their trans kids to correction camps? Nooooo!”
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I don’t think the existence of scrupulous people invalidates every statement that begins with “It would be really good if…”
I think scrupulous people exist, and we should be sensitive toward them, which is why I am very explicit when I think something would be positive, virtuous, or helpful, contrasted with things I believe are horrible, mean-spirited, or socially unacceptable.
It is unreasonable to expect me to provide a moral framework laid out in strict black-and-white. Life doesn’t work that way.
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Futanari – Anime/Manga porn where the girls have dicks.
I’ll admit upfront that I find futanari to be a major turn off for me, so I don’t have much experience with it. That said, I have never found myself conceptualizing futanari as “not real girls.” I’ve also never seen it presented this way among anime fans. I’ve always seen it described along the lines of “chicks with dicks,” rather than something like “guys with tits.” I’ve also never seen a piece where the futanari weren’t referred to with feminine pronouns or otherwise treated as “secretly men” within the work itself (at least in the subtitles, I don’t speak Japenese). So if you think you won’t be attracted to a trans girl who hasn’t had her genitalia altered and you’re wondering whether this about not seeing her as a “real girl” (and if you’re of an appropriate age with respect to local laws), then I suggest checking out Futanari.
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It’s funny, though. It seems almost like the “straight dude” oriented pornography actually does a better job of correctly gendering trans women than the more queer-oriented porn. Sure, terms like “shemale” is super gross, but on the other hand “straight dude” porn is almost uniformly gross. Misogyny runs through that stuff pretty deep. (It can be hot though.) So anyway, we never get misgendered in “straight dude” porn. We’re treated as a fetish, along with fat girls and enema-fans or whatever. That’s — well, it doesn’t make me feel good.
But the feminist-queer porn — there we don’t exist, so you get underground lesbian film companies finally releasing a “trans positive” title, which means they filmed a scene with a dyke and a trans dude.
sigh
People sometimes wonder how trans women can be hypersexualized and desexualized at the same time. This is how.
I find myself more drawn to the “straight dude” oriented shemale porn. At least they get that we’re women. They treat us as appallingly bad as they do cis women.
That’s something, I guess.
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@Veronica: I’m about to ask you what I suspect is a sensitive question, so feel free to just not read on if you want. But if you’re up for it…
How specifically is being seen as a fetish problematic for you? Do you have any advice for addressing these specific problems, as opposed to advice about fetishization in general?
I’m asking this because I’ve seen people complain about being fetishized before, and overwhelmingly the advice I run into is that we should stop treating the fetishized people as exotic. But some demograhics are *really* rare. I’ve seen estimates as low as 0.3% for transgender rates in the US, so there is definitely a sense in which you *are* exotic that is making it difficult for me to parse the usual advice. Hopefully an understanding of what specifically is harmful about the fetishization will lead to better strategies for addressing it than “lie to myself about population distributions.”
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[In which I swear a lot and talk about dicks]
[Some of this may come across as anti-male. It’s complicated. Please read charitably.]
@Zaq — Personal opinion (which is not necessarily shared by other trans women), I totally don’t mind being someone’s fetish. I mean, come on — I’m a girl with a dick. That’s kinda weird right?
It actually can be pretty fucking goddam hot. Jesus fuck! Girldick.
I don’t mind tranny porn. In fact, I actually prefer tranny porn over the toothless milquetoast garbage “queer porn” we get. Tranny porn turns me on. Thoughtful, social-justice oriented queer porn bores me to fucking tears.
It’s like, hurry up and do something unrealistic and crass!
But the men! OMG why are the men so gross? so fucking sleazy?
There seems to be a thing where being a fetish has to get combined with being a piece of garbage. It’s probably some madonna/whore bullshit. I dunno.
Look, I actually wouldn’t mind doing the stuff in the videos — or at least trying to. (Those women are pros. I am not.) But I want to know it is more than that. I don’t want to be your cumbucket.
I mean, if we agree, you can treat me like a cumbucket, for the duration of the scene. But afterward, in real life, I want to feel valued as a human being.
I know women who have been hurt so bad, so deeply — like I can’t really put it into words how awful it is.
It’s not even like you need to be my boyfriend. If it’s a one time thing, sure, why not? Sex is fun. I’m not against one time things. I’ve been to tons of feminists oriented kink parties where folks hook up for cool on-the-spot scenes. They do all sorts of remarkable things. But somehow, even if the scene is preposterously degrading and weird — and believe me, I HAVE SEEN THINGS! But somehow, from the culture of the group, there is a sense of respect from everyone toward everyone.
Horny, fetishy men at tranny bars seldom behave that way.
A guy will get a fantasy in his head. He’ll want an object to fulfill it. He doesn’t always particularly like that object. In fact, he often rather hates her, he hates her for desire she brings out. She is the agent of his weakness, a source of shame.
I mean, this is worst case. I’m describing the worst guys. But still. The men who pursue trans women — it’s just so fucking hard to trust any of them. If you see what they write about us on the porn sites. It’s like we’re human trash. The way they behave. Yeesh.
It’s simply, there is no way I’m hooking up with a guy I just met. I mean, I gotta know he’s solid. I need reputation. But the scene is so fractured. I can’t think of a single guy I know who is 1) decent looking, and 2) into trans women, and 3) not an asshole.
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How to do better? Well first, lots of trans women have zero fucking tolerance. I think this is sad, but I can’t fix it. Second, you gotta-gotta-gotta value her as a person first and a fetish-object second. That’s a big deal. Say we’re going and you’re getting close and suddenly I start crying for some fucked up reason — well you STOP AND FIND OUT WHY BECAUSE MY FEELINGS MATTER MORE THAN YOUR ORGASM.
This seems like it should be obvious, but it is not.
Learn about BDSM, negotiation, check-ins, aftercare, safewords, “RACK” principles, and so on. Liking girldick doesn’t have to look just like BDSM. You don’t have to wear leather or have some dumb bondage rack on your wall. That said, the BDSM folks know how to handle difficult sexual situations.
(I dunno if you already know this stuff. A lot is 101 level kink. But anyway.)
Put her feelings first. Well, I mean, this includes your feelings. Both of your feelings matter equally. But I mean, put feelings before the kink, lust, etc.
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I dunno. A lot of queer trans women don’t like men all that much. Nothing you do will make them happy. A lot of us just don’t trust people who seem fetishy. But then, I don’t think it’s the fetish. I think it’s the other stuff that comes along.
There is no good way to talk about it that won’t piss people off. Blame transphobia.
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You write as if you see no distinction between “My penis is 3 inches” and “I’m trans”. The distinction is so huge and so obvious that it seems deliberately uncharitable to equate the two. It comes off as if you’d prefer to pretend that this distinction doesn’t exist rather than defend why it doesn’t actually prove what it seems to prove. It also *really* comes off like you think that if someone doesn’t want to make out with trans people, their desires are invalid and if they try to express them, they’re bad people.
I’m not offended, and you can obviously say what you want on your own blog, but you might want to know that if you are interested in people actually being nicer to trans people instead of contributing to “trans people are trying to police your thoughts and values while pretending they’re just for universal niceness”.
If this isn’t intentional, I can unpack.
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What is the huge and obvious distinction you refer to? It is not obvious to me.
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A guy with a small penis has a reasonable expectation that whoever is considering making out with him is aware of the possibility that he has a small penis. If they don’t choose to do anything to find out first, that’s further evidence that they’re *okay* with this possibility when they go to make out with him. Even if they tend to prefer bigger, he’s not going to expect them to feel *betrayed* because he wasn’t doing anything to make it seem like he does.
Trans women are much rarer than small dicks, and people really not wanting to make out with trans women are much more common than people really not wanting to make out with a guy who has a small dick. There are a whole lot of people who wouldn’t even track the possibility that the cute girl they’re about to make out with has a dick, and to them, going out of their way to match all the signs of being a cis woman *is* misleading. If a trans woman does a good job of passing, she does *not* have a reasonable expectation that they’re thinking “she might have a penis, and I’m okay with that”. In those cases, the reasonable expectation is that there’s a very good chance that they’d want to know (and likely not want to make out with her if they did).
Not telling something something they would have wanted to know because you thought they were okay with it is an unfortunate part of life. Not telling them because you thought the might not want to make out with you if they knew, because they might be mad at you if they knew, or because they’re not allowed to have preferences over who they make out with beyond superficial attraction (“what! I AM a woman, and you weren’t even interacting with my penis!”) is dishonest, deceptive and dismissive. It’s blatant disregard for their values, and by doing that you’re putting yourself in the enemy slot, *not* the ally slot, so don’t be surprised and offended when you get negative responses.
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Guess what. Trans women exist. In fact, we are quite a frequent topic on television and date-to-day conversation. But more, quite recently the nation’s top tabloid news story was about a trans woman. The public was wildly fascinated by her. They couldn’t get enough, article after article. This continued for quite a few months, and still continues on a low simmer right now. In fact, a Google News search for “Caitlyn Jenner” returns a full-screen of articles in the last 24 hours. Some of those are from major outlets. The idea that the average man today is unaware of trans women is not even laughable. We get far more media attention than small penises.
I sometimes get kissed by men without first letting them know I’m trans. Now, I usually assume they know, since I don’t really pass all that well. That said, in my case this really only happens at dance clubs and such. Like, I’ll be dancing with a guy, he gets close, I let him, he gets closer, I still let him, he goes for the kiss.
I’m not going to stop him and say (shouting over the music), “Hey I’m trans.” As if.
The last guy who did this — well he was a pretty sloppy kisser and way to handsy, so I pushed him off and shouted, “Too fast honey.” I guess he wanted fast or nothing, cuz he moved on. Later I saw him hard-sloppy-kissing some other trans woman (or maybe cross dresser). She seemed to want to go as fast as he wanted to go. Good for them. (She can maybe teach him to kiss.)
So anyway, yeah, he knew. I expect they’ve all known.
And if not? Well, I’m a woman. They liked me. They kissed me. That’s it.
Trans women exist. We’re women. Some of us are hot as fuck (or in my case mediocre but if you’re horny enough). If you want hot women, and go for hot women you don’t really know that well — well we have all kinds of life histories. Some of those histories will include being trans. Deal with it.
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That said, all of this seems pretty irrelevant in nerd-space, which I assume is most people here. Nerds are hyper-cerebral, hyper-verbal, and the idea that a nerd-dude is dating a nerd-trans-gal and somehow gender and transness and so on never comes up before they get past their ocean of smarts-induced social anxiety to get to the good parts — well how often does that actually happen? Do any of you imagine this will be a real problem in your life?
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Veronica, you seem both offended and like you see me as offended (“deal with it”). I understand that you (and others) exist, and I have no problems with it. I have never had a problem with trans women in the past, and really do not anticipate having problems with trans women in the future. That said, it seems that you’re missing the point of my comment.
It’s not that people haven’t heard of Caitlyn Jenner, it’s that when a straight cis man is looking at what looks like an attractive cis woman, he often isn’t thinking “oh, but this might be one of those Caitlyn Jenners, I hear they’re super common now”. It’s very easy to get the impression that trans women, as a general rule, don’t pass well. Part of this is obviously selection bias, but there seems to be at least some truth to this as well (when browsing okcupid, I have yet to get to “I’m trans” without having already guessed it from the pictures). If you don’t pass well and have a giant beard, then none of this applies because you’re basically telling them anyway. However, if you actually pass well for a conventionally attractive cis woman, there’s a very very good chance that the guy isn’t thinking about the possibility that you’re trans because even though he knows that they exist in the abstract, it probably hasn’t occurred to him that the very feminine and cute girl in front of him could possibly be trans. Even if this is an ignorant position to hold, it’s still his genuine position and to ignore that is to be an invalidating jerk.
Personally, if I ended up making out with a cute girl only to later find out that she’s trans, I wouldn’t be thinking “ew, that’s really a dude”, I’d be thinking “ew, dishonest creep that tried to implicitly lie her way into my pants”. I’d give her the benefit of the doubt, of course, and give her a chance to explain that she really genuinely thought she had reason to believe I was okay with it. Realistically though, I don’t think she could say that without being dismissive towards my values. Do you?
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The value in question is transphobia. It *should* be dismissed. If someone you were attracted to is unexpectedly trans and you thought she couldn’t possibly have been, the problem is that your expectations were wrong.
Do you think in general people should disclose things that might make them be discriminated against? Is it unethical for a gay person not to come out to a prospective employer while interviewing, just in case the prospective employer has homophobic values, out of respect for those values? (I do think that discrimination in choosing a partner is more okay than in choosing an employee, but still.)
And trans people in general have been trying to *increase* the awareness in the general population of the existence and diversity of trans people and the fact that really anyone could be trans and that’s okay.
Also, making out does not entail trying to get into your pants (“A Kiss Is Not A Contract”). I do not understand where in the chain of events that might lead to making out with someone you don’t know well enough to know they’re trans it would be reasonable to say “oh btw I have a penis” – if anything I think it’s presumptuous to think before any making out has even happened that this is relevant. If you think pre-disclosure must happen, between making out and sex is a reasonable time to do it, I’d think.
Also yeah it was not at all obvious to me what you were going to say. You overestimate how much people share your values an worldview.
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@A — I wasn’t actually offended, but I know I come across as blunt and people sometimes assume that. So whatever. On the other hand, this:
That’s actually pretty fucking offensive. I’m guessing you have zero trans friends.
(Your loss, actually.)
Anyway, if it happens, if you kiss a trans gal, then it happened. Deal with it. You’re a grown up. You made an assumption about her history and her body. It was wrong. Now you get to deal, as does she.
Trick her way into your pants? Ha! OMG! It was kissing. Trust me, I kiss guys when I have absolutely zero desire to go further. I’ve made out with dudes on the dance floor, who were kinda gross, but whatever. I’m at a dance club. I’m feeling the music. Kissing can be really nice. Likewise, I can easily see a first date situation getting amorous and break out in furious kissing. The “get in your pants” thing could remain a distant possibility. Or not. Or maybe she just wants to blow you. (Count yourself lucky.) Anyway, all sorts of situations might lead to kissing, but before she felt ready to talk about her body or her past.
If you think she’s owes you some warning, welp, she felt otherwise. Welcome to the Thunderdome.
If you hurt her, you fucking suck. Anyone who hurts her should fucking pay hard. If you’re shitty to her, well whatever. When you’re trans you get tough. She’ll move on, put you in the “foolish mistake” category, and resume her search for a decent guy.
Each girl-like-us lives a somewhat different life, and thus each of us has to figure out on her own how to navigate all of this stuff. We’re people, with a normal mix of good faith and bad. Shit’s gonna happen. It might happen with you. If you’re a dick about it, then you’re a dick. No big. Any woman who dates will tell you, jerkwad guys are a dime a dozen.
She might just want to see if you’re a decent kisser before she sits down for the big long talk.
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@ tcheasdfjkl:
“The value in question is transphobia. It *should* be dismissed.”
Thank you for being upfront about this. This is one thing I was getting at. However, if you look a little more closely, you’ll see that not all values that fit here are transphobic. If your only desire to make out stems from wanting to find a wife and have children who are biologically yours, then you will have no interest in making out with trans women, no matter how nonphobic you are. If she knows this and withholds her trans status, valuing honesty is enough to not like her behavior.
“If someone you were attracted to is unexpectedly trans and you thought she couldn’t possibly have been, the problem is that your expectations were wrong.”
Not “thought she couldn’t possibly have been”, but “never considered the hypothesis that she is”. This is still a failure, of course, but that’s not really a problem. You kissed someone that it later turns out you wouldn’t have been interested in if you knew more. Oh well.
“Do you think in general people should disclose things that might make them be discriminated against?[…]”
Its clearly unfriendly and uncooperative. The question is whether that’s something you’re okay with in that relationship. In an employment situation it doesn’t sound ideal, but I wouldn’t say that it’s never a good idea. I think a lot of people wouldn’t like that from someone they’re making out with though. “I’d tell you, only you’d reject me if I did” is a pretty creepy thing to say.
If “well, you were happy to make out with me when you thought I was cis!” doesn’t seem obviously bad to you, compare to “well, you were happy to make out with me when you thought I was your wife and not your stalker!”. Sometimes people value things beyond superficial appearance. Sometimes even when they don’t have perfect information of these underlying traits.
“Also, making out does not entail trying to get into your pants (“A Kiss Is Not A Contract”).”
You’re absolutely right, it doesn’t have to be. Pardon my sloppy language and replace “pants” with “mouth”. Let me know if you think that changes anything.
“Also yeah it was not at all obvious to me what you were going to say. You overestimate how much people share your values an worldview.”
It’s not about people sharing this worldview. It’s not about *my* worldview at all. My point is that worldviews that don’t value making out with trans women are *common* and that the difference between disclosing “small dick” and “trans woman” (which, remember, translates to “actually a dude” to a lot of these people) is so easy to find that it suggests that anyone who doesn’t see it is just immediately dismissing them as being “transphobic” rather than actually trying to understand *why* they would have a problem with the lack of disclosure.
Keep in mind, I’m not trying to change anyone’s minds here. I’m trying to give people a chance to change *my* mind. It seems to me like trans advocates here are just being dismissive and deliberately choosing to not have empathy for people who for all they know could be making good faith efforts to understand and be nice yet feel like their toes are being stepped on. It seems like they’re alienating potential allies by defecting out of spite when cooperation would benefit both sides. I don’t want to see it that way, but I’m not really seeing otherwise here.
@veronica
“That’s actually pretty fucking offensive.”
Perhaps that’s because you’re reading things into it which aren’t there? I’m not suggesting that you have a big beard, that all trans women do or are “basically like that anyway” or anything else dismissive. Just that if one did choose to have a large beard and identify as a woman, disclosure wouldn’t be necessary because the beard is enough of a hint for them to consider the hypothesis. If that’s still offensive, I guess I’m missing something.
Either way, I’m not interested in having a discussion with someone who takes offense at a good faith effort to understand instead of explaining what I’m missing.
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also,
“I do not understand where in the chain of events that might lead to making out with someone you don’t know well enough to know they’re trans it would be reasonable to say “oh btw I have a penis” – if anything I think it’s presumptuous to think before any making out has even happened that this is relevant. If you think pre-disclosure must happen, between making out and sex is a reasonable time to do it, I’d think.”
It’s only presumptuous if you’re presuming that it can’t be unimportant. “hey, I know it probably doesn’t matter and if not that’s great, but in case you care I wanted to tell you before we go any further: I have a pet turtle”. The response you get is “Okay? Yeah, that’s fine”, not “Woah there, don’t you accusing me of being a turtle hater!”.
I can’t be too specific without blowing my anonymity, but I have my own thing to disclose before things get too far so I know what you mean. It’s definitely not a trivial problem. However, that doesn’t protect me from people potentially feeling hurt and betrayed if I don’t.
Personally, I think they would be wrong to, but their feelings are theirs, they’re real, and I don’t want to be a dismissive jerk just because they’re wrong. If it’s hard for me and it hurts me that they don’t see things how I’d like them to that’s *my* problem. Fuck me if I’m gonna take it out on their innocent and ignorant little hearts.
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But wait, much of that is precisely the same if the woman in question is cis, but lacks a functioning reproductive system. Likewise you might imagine that a woman you have met in a particular setting must be a member of your religion. If she turns out otherwise, then she has done nothing wrong.
Infertile cis women exist. Cis women with no plans of marriage and kids exist. If you don’t want to kiss someone like that, you need to talk to them first. You bring it up.
Furthermore, the idea of the “trap,” which is a slur for a pretty woman who turns out trans, is a staple of contemporary media. Men know about it. They joke about it quite frequently. It has been in countless television shows. Even when I went to school, there was always that rumor floating around about the one guy who hooked up with a “tranny.”
Sorry, I just don’t believe that this is a bewildering impossibility. The fact that some men still regard it as a comical outrage that won’t happen to them — that’s them being deeply mistaken about the world. Their mistakes are not my fault, nor the fault of the women who might end up with these shitheads.
Regarding feelings, you can feel however you want to feel. However, a man might find it wildly unlikely that his date is biracial. For example, this might happen if she lives in a homogenous, mostly-white community. She might not mention it — why should she? They might kiss (or do more). He might turn out to be a terrible racist. Does he then get to cry that he kissed a “half {blank}”?
I mean, he can cry out, but who should bother to listen? Myself, I’d just shrug and say, “What a fucking racist.”
He can feel what he feels, as can I. The point is, this demonstrates, at most, that transphobia is more openly accepted than (overt) racism.
But we already knew that.
Stop being transphobic and this problem goes away.
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“But wait, much of that is precisely the same if the woman in question is cis, but lacks a functioning reproductive system. ”
Yes, much of it is, which makes it a decent analogy.
When revealing after making out “by the way, I’m infertile”, what are the odds you think she gets a bad response compared to if she were to reveal “by the way, I have a penis”?
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I don’t know. I don’t have much experience in that domain, so I can hurt someone with that, but… My experience is that I’m not much interested in just casual sex, and am more interested to create a family and to have some children of my own. So I’m not going to date a person that I know says they’ll never want children or will never be able to have children. So unless the technology is good enough (and I hope it’ll get there soon) I’m not into trans women and it doesn’t matter much if I’m attracted or not and how super cute I find them to be.
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That’s fine! I talked about penises in most of the post, but if you replace “has penis” with “is infertile” the rest should apply. (Or, you know, just treat trans women the same way you’d treat a childfree or infertile cis woman.)
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I have a couple friends in a similar position, and I say what Ozy does, so long as you are treating us more or less the same as an infertile cis woman, then I cannot really call you transphobic. I mean, I might call you “patriarchal,” but whatever. I do find the fixation on genetic children somewhat odd. It’s not that I outright reject the desire. It seems like a sensible thing to want. However, when it becomes a make-or-break life demand, I wonder about the wisdom of that.
First, my mom and dad were both infertile, so they adopted kids. Fine. Growing up, by the time I was old enough to understand this stuff, they seemed to have come to terms with the whole thing. But when they were younger — I haven’t talked to them much about it, but I get the sense that they struggled with feelings that they were “less than.” That really sucks. I also sometimes wonder if they ended up together because no one else wanted them? Maybe. I don’t dare ask.
I don’t like a society with those values. I don’t like the idea that my family was a consolation prize. It is not. My parents are not “less than.” They are amazing.
It is fine to want genetic children, but at what cost?
I have a friend, a cis woman. She is now divorced. When she was married, she had two miscarriages. Her husband cajoled her into trying again. He really wanted kids. That pregnancy also miscarried. She was devastated, could not take more, so she informed her husband that this is it. She’s not trying again. He divorced her.
He is free to do that. I am free to think he’s a jerk.
At what point to you ask a cis woman if she has had fertility tests? Have you had fertility tests? How do you want women to treat you, should you be unable to father kids?
You don’t have to answer; it truly is none of my business. These are rhetorical questions.
You might not have genetic kids. Other paths might open before you in life. Somewhere on that twisty path, you might encounter a woman who makes your heart sing. Maybe she loves you back, in a way no one else has.
She might be infertile. You’ll have to deal with that.
She might be trans.
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Of course it’s possible, and of course I’m not going to leave my partner if it happens that they’re infertile, that’s horrible, but that’s one of the important things I’d want from a relationship and so it makes me less likely to start dating a trans woman. Otherwise, I’m generally in favor of treating people the way they want to be treated. Within reason.
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That was a reply to veronica d
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@Vamair — Yeah I don’t have a problem with that. The point is, I don’t see any reason you should need to single out trans women, since a number of cis women will be unable to have kids and know it. I’m same situation as them. I certainly don’t feel misgendered by being compared to them.
Now, how exactly you present something like a dating profile I’m not sure. If you say, “I only want women who can bare kids” or something, it might come across as kinda patriarchal. But then, maybe the woman you are looking for will want exactly that. I dunno. Not my monkey, not my circus.
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This kind of phrase sounds extremely tone-deaf for me, I really wouldn’t like it on a dating profile. Without thinking for five minutes, I’d write something like “interested in long time relations, pref. family&kids”. Otoh, I don’t have a dating profile anywhere, so it’s not a problem right now.
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@Vamair — Right. I mean, what I wrote was an example of what you wouldn’t do. Stressing the positive goals is kind of obviously better.
The thing is, a big list of precise requirements is going to be a huge turn-off for a lot of people. On the other hand, you might get some messages “What do you think of adoption?” That can be kinda awkward.
Which, you wanna tell the truth about your goals. On the other hand, a blunt brush-off might really hurt that woman. It’s like, no matter how far we’ve moved from my parent’s generation, childbearing is still a big deal to a lot of women. So yeah. She’s probably carrying some baggage from that.
Anyway, I don’t have a problem with any of this. It in no way misgenders me.
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Thank you for posting. 🙂
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Okay no. You’re the one who needs a reality check. I have no problem with trans men and women but that doesn’t mean I have to date them. Why should a trans woman be bothered if I(a lesbian) am not attracted to a trans woman? There are plenty of women who would date a trans woman. The people that aren’t interested are NOT the end all be all. Fuck your feelings and grow the fuck up
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