[Content warnings: scrupulosity; assumes the reader is an effective altruist and broadly on board with measuring the value of human lives in money.]
I.
A lot of arguments that vegetarianism is not effective altruism– for instance, this essay by Katja Grace– use the current cost of saving a life according to GiveWell as the approximate value of a human life. [ETA: see Katja’s comment, that is not precisely what her essay is doing.] This would be sensible if charitable donations were an efficient market, in which people arbitraged lives: if there were an opportunity to save lives for much less than the value of human lives, then people would do that, and then we could expect that the cheapest one can save a life for is approximately the value of a human life.
However, one of the key facts leading one to effective altruism is that human lives are not arbitraged; because people have certain biases– we favor people in our own country, we don’t intuitively understand the difference between 10,000 and 100,000– it is possible to get tremendous steals on saving lives.
The value of a human life according to the US government is somewhere between six million dollars and nine million dollars. Take the middle number and call it seven and a half million dollars. With that calculation, the ethical cost of a chicken meal turns out not to be equivalent to the $5.50 Katja calculates but a mind-boggling $3669.
Of course, that assumes that chickens have equal moral weight to humans. I don’t think they do. But assuming that chickens are worth half as much as a human are, it still works out that the average chicken meal causes almost $2000 of damage.
(Some people are going to read this and be like “wait, that means that every time I pay for a Netflix subscription instead of donating to GiveWell I am complicit in thousands of dollars’ worth of harm.” And, well, yeah. Are you new?)
II.
The second argument I see a lot of non-vegetarian effective altruists using against becoming vegetarian is that it trades off against donating more. This is a pretty common argument whenever anyone brings up a form of altruism unrelated to direct work or earning to give: should we really be protesting, or donating kidneys, or boycotting Nestle, or eating vegetarian, or not driving, if it reduces our effectiveness in direct work or earning to give?
Now, there are two groups of people this does not apply to. First, some effective altruists like Jeff Kaufman decide how much good they’re going to do in approximate dollar values. When an opportunity comes for a high-cost opportunity for doing good, such as becoming vegetarian, they measure the cost in dollars and then don’t donate an equivalent amount of money. Second, some effective altruists do “morality offsets”– every time they eat meat, they donate five dollars more to the Against Malaria Foundation than they otherwise would. Both of those are perfectly reasonable behavior and my blog post does not apply to people doing them.
However, I think for most effective altruists this is a terrible model for understanding how to do the most good.
First, adding a new form of altruism might make it easier to do direct work or earning to give. Vegetarianism is, for most people, a lot cheaper than eating meat, simply because eating meat costs more. If you go vegetarian, you free up money that you can spend on donating. Another place this argument applies is conserving resources and general environmentalism: reducing the amount you fly or using energy-efficient appliances is good for the earth, but it also saves money, making it easier to donate more. (These two examples suggest a general heuristic– when looking for money-saving ideas, favor ones that are also more ethical.)
Second, this model assumes that humans have a single limiting factor on how much good they do. However, in many cases, the limiting factor on one’s donations or career success is completely unrelated to limiting factors on one’s ability to be vegetarian.
For instance, imagine Alice. Alice has a salaried job; if she worked additional hours, she would not earn more money. She has calculated that, above fifty hours a week of work and study, the marginal effect of additional time on her career success is essentially zero. While she could theoretically get a part-time job or work on Mechanical Turk, that would be sufficiently dispiriting that it would burn her out. She is also donating income at a percentage above which she would burn out.
Now, Alice is considering going vegetarian, or attending her local #BlackLivesMatter protest, or selling her car and taking CalTrain to work. While all of these have costs, they probably aren’t coming out of the time Alice is spending on her career. They’re coming out of (respectively) the diversity of food with which Alice tantalizes her tastebuds, Alice’s ability to sit in her underwear on Saturday and watch cartoons, and Alice not having to check the schedule to make sure she doesn’t miss her train. None of those decisions are likely to have any effect on how much Alice donates.
In my own case, I’ve been everything from vegan to pescatarian. I did not donate more when I was eating fish; if anything, the correlation went the other direction. Instead, my donations were mostly affected by whether or not I have a job– a constraint nearly entirely unrelated to my dietary habits. And my quality of life as a pescatarian was not particularly higher than my quality of life as a lacto vegetarian. (Vegan is hard. Cheese!)
Basically, my argument is this: the marginal cost of Alice becoming vegetarian is much much lower than the marginal cost of Alice donating more money. Therefore, if Alice wishes to do more good in the world, she should become vegetarian– regardless of whether donating more money is more effective.
Obviously, not everyone’s costs of becoming vegetarian are as low as Alice’s. Some people have health problems if they don’t eat meat. Some people have eating disorders that are triggered by any sort of restrictive diet. Some people have diets restricted in other ways, and not eating meat would cause them to miss out on important nutrients. Some people live in food deserts and take what they can get. Some people are completely disgusted by vegetables and trying to become vegetarian would mean they would live entirely on bread. All of those are perfectly reasonable quality of life reasons not to become vegetarian– and (for that matter) all of them seem likely to interfere with how much someone can donate.
However, for a lot of people, vegetarianism does not interfere with other forms of altruism. I encourage meat-eating effective altruists who read this to consider whether they can reduce their meat consumption in relatively low-cost ways. Can you learn to cook a handful more vegetarian meals? Try Meatless Monday or vegan before 6? Stop eating chicken? Drink more Soylet (or MealSquares, if they come out with a vegan version, HINT HINT)? Obviously, if reducing your animal product consumption affects your career or your quality of life, you should scale it back. But I suspect a lot of people will find that reducing their consumption of animal products is a lot easier and lower-cost than they think it is.
…but if chickens are worth half as much as humans, wouldn’t that mean that it’s better to save three chickens than one human? i think maybe that’s off by a few orders of magnitude.
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…Or am i missing something about lifespans? Then again I’d still rather save 1 immortal human than 3 immortal chickens
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My actual animal ethics are slightly more complicated than I go into in this post: I value chicken happiness about half as much as I value human happiness, but I also include human lives in my utility function, while I don’t include chicken lives. 🙂 I didn’t include those details in the calculation because they’d clutter it up.
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Oh, okay. That still seems kinda high to me but then again i am a terrible speciesist so what do I know :p
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It sounds like you misunderstand my essay—I’m not sure if the same goes for the class wish to use it as an example of. I use the GiveWell cost of saving a human life as the cost of saving a human life, not as the value of a human life in some other sense. I claim that you shouldn’t expend money or effort saving a life (or rather averting some suffering) because you can do so more cheaply elsewhere.
Whether you should spend resources on others to the total extent you can before spending a dollar becomes as painful to you as it is helpful to someone else is a separate question, to which the answer in the short term is generally ‘no’, given usual understanding of the terms. At a minimum because giving away food until you are the most starving person on Earth ruins your own ability to be helpful in the long term. Given that you are not going to spend on others to that extreme, whenever you spend money on yourself that money will be helping you a little, at the cost of much more suffering to others. Thus looking out for cases where apparently small gains in your own life come at great cost to others is not a good way of spotting immoral behavior. i.e. even if a chicken meal produces $3000 of value in some sense, it is irrelevant because then donating to the other charities is also worth much more, and it is not true that you should do all the tiny things that make you thousands of dollars in moral value in the short term, because there are too many of them.
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Some of my disagreement is addressed in the second half of my post: I think, for a lot of people, donating an extra five hundred dollars would have significant impact on their quality of life, while not eating their next hundred chicken meals would have a relatively marginal impact. In those cases, I don’t think it makes sense to go “you should donate five hundred dollars instead.” I don’t think that commits me to the position that everyone should be a saint. 🙂
I also don’t think there are lots of tiny things that make me thousands of dollars of moral value. Can you give some examples? This might be an awesome win for me. 🙂
I added an ETA pointing people to your comment, and also clarified my argument a bit in the second half.
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> Switch to the vegan formulation of Soylent
As of…1.4, I think(?), Soylent is vegan by default.
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Awesome! 🙂 Drink more Soylent, then. 😛
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I don’t really understand vegetarianism. If I’m (probably) a total utilitarian, and I value animals and diversity, should I consider farm animal lives to be a negative part of the sum? If I stop eating them, I’m not so much saving animals as diminishing their population, because of the lowered demand for meat, eggs and dairy. That is only true about domestic animals, though. I’m on it with not eating wild animals. So… there is a moral imperative to make the farm conditions more comfortable, sure, but about eating/not eating… That depends. Can anyone explain what I’m missing?
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The argument is that farm animals have negative utility, thus bringing them into existance is immoral.
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That is a pretty much unjustifiable assumption. If you have ever lived with chickens you know for a fact that they are happy when they are fed, unhappy when being chased around and pretty much indifferent to anything else. So a farm chicken can be considered at least a +5 on the global utility function. Way better than a wild one.
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Even if it’s true, isn’t the best course of action to find a high-utility farm, so eating meat from them would not only be moral, but more so than not eating meat or eating vat-grown meat? I used to be a big fan of vat-grown meat, but now I’m not so sure because I’m not at all convinced that farm animal lives have negative utility.
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The Smoke wrote:
“If you have ever lived with chickens you know for a fact that they are happy when they are fed, unhappy when being chased around and pretty much indifferent to anything else.”
I would think they are even more “unhappy” about mutilations (e.g. debeaking) without anesthesia, as well as slaughter if it comes with pain or other strong suffering.
Even moderate boredom matters if you force it on many billions continually.
The comparison with wild birds would only be valid if the consumption of a farmed chicken actually replaced a wild bird 1:1, with no other relevant indirect effects. As it turns out for chickens (but probably not for cows or pigs), they do not replace an equal amount of wild-animals. Consider this paper: http://www.qalys.org/animal-welfare.pdf
It would be great if we had chickens without pain, fear, boredom etc., perhaps even chickens optimized for pleasure in cages. It would also be great if we had higher humane standards. But there are practical obstacles to both solutions (consumer acceptance and cost).
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Okay, if there are going to be more of you guys, I have the perfect business model: Animal farming with strict standards that include drugging the animals to the maximum possible extent as to tip the pleasure/pain balance to a state you would assign “positive utility”. Then selling them as meat. One might have to work around some practical issues, e.g. ensuring that there is no drug concentration in the meat that would disqualify it from consumption, etc. but it is an effective way to cross-finance wireheading, so you should be happy with that.
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The Smoke, I can’t tell if you are being sarcastic or serious, but the idea is fine in principle. It’s just that the number of people who are concerned about animal welfare beyond lip-service *and also* open-minded enough for this sort of approach is economically negligible.
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Gaverick Matheny’s article “Human Diets and Animal Welfare: the Illogic of the Larder” gives some reasonably good counterconsiderations to this argument.
Abstract:
“Few moral arguments have been made against vegetarian diets. One exception is the “Logic of the Larder:” We do animals a favor by purchasing their meat, eggs, and milk, for if we did not purchase these products, fewer animals would exist. This argument fails because many farm animals have lives that are probably not worth living, while others prevent a significant number of wild animals from existing. Even if this were not so, the purchase of animal products uses resources that could otherwise be used to bring a much greater number of animals into existence.”
Click to access animal-welfare.pdf
Carl Shulman has argued that Matheny’s view cuts the other way if you believe wild animals have net negative lives here:
http://reflectivedisequilibrium.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/vegan-advocacy-and-pessimism-about-wild.html
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Of course, that assumes that chickens have equal moral weight to humans. I don’t think they do. But assuming that chickens are worth half as much as a human are ,…”
This seems really high to me. Do you know *anyone* who includes chickens in their utility function at even 1/10th of a human? (Naive scaling by #neurons gets you 116x.)
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Yes, I’ve seen people who do, or even assign greater weight, on the grounds that reflective consciousness makes pleasure and pain less intense or something like that.
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116x is wrong; it should be closer to 300x. (I had misread http://reflectivedisequilibrium.blogspot.com/2013/09/how-is-brain-mass-distributed-among.html)
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This implies if I think one should value a chicken at between 1/5000 and 1/10000 of the rate they value a person then the cost of eating chicken is not that high.
This post actually encouraged me to feel better about eating meat.
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Cool! I’m glad it helped. 🙂
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Regarding vegan cheese: there have been some recent advances in this area. The Chao coconut-cheese brand which became generally available this year has a good enough spicy pepperjack substitute to fool my non-vegan friends when melted onto burgers!
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It is still pretty expensive though…
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You should become vegetarian/vegan only if it’s the best use of your energy on the margin. I’d argue that for many EAs, if they want to increase their “EA factor” and become more selfless, they’re better off spending energy on a side project, freelance work, etc. than being vegetarian. But I could see it being a good choice for EAs for whom vegetarianism is relatively painless & easy and who can’t think of better ideas for improving their EA factor on the margin.
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In the context of kidney donation, Alexander, who is himself a kidney donor, has argued:
“I think of moral sacrifice as something closer to a muscle: it can be used up, but it can also be worked out, flexed, strengthened. I think of donating a kidney as something more like a workout that will train the moral muscle than like a marathon that will exhaust it. If you think that donating a kidney would exhaust your moral capacity, I agree that you probably shouldn’t do it.”
http://lesswrong.com/lw/d4v/altruistic_kidney_donation/6w9j (much more at the link)
I think his thoughts are also relevant w/r/t veg*ism
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