I was argued into supporting eugenics about two years or so back, and then I was argued out of it, so I felt like I ought to write up my reasons for being anti-eugenics as a sort of perspective from someone who has been there. (Definitions: “eugenics” here means noncoercive eugenics, such as free birth control to people with certain traits or encouraging people who are carriers of certain genetic diseases not to breed. It does not mean forcibly sterilizing people, much less killing them. I am also not discussing the deliberate genetic engineering of designer babies, because the technology isn’t here yet.)
The most important reason, I think, is that humans suck at eugenics.
Normally, the example people give here is Nazis. However, I promised I would not talk about Nazis. So instead let’s talk about dairy cows.
Today’s dairy cows produce ten times as much milk as cows a few decades ago, due primarily to heavy selective breeding. This heavy selective breeding leads to mastitis, an extremely painful infection of the udder. And it’s endemic: in 2007, 79% of farms that reported permanently removing cows from their herds did so because of mastitis. And that doesn’t even count all the cows with subclinical mastitis: if it doesn’t interfere with milk production, the cow can continue to suffer for the rest of her life.
“Okay,” you might say. “That’s great, but we don’t actually care about whether dairy cows live in constant pain. We do, presumably, care about whether our children live in constant pain.”
People also care about whether their dogs live in constant pain.
Thousands of cavalier king charles spaniels have brains too big for their skulls, which leave them in constant pain. The cute face of pugs put them at risk of respiratory problems such as brachycephalic obstructive airway syndrome, which can make it impossible for them to breathe. Pugs’ large, deepset eyes leave them at risk of conjunctivitis. For more information, I highly recommend the documentary Pedigree Dogs Exposed.
Owners love dogs. I’m sure everyone has known someone who has spent hundreds of dollars they couldn’t really afford to try to save their dog. And yet breeders– people who have literally devoted their lives to taking care of dogs– made their beloved animals live lives of tremendous pain.
For cuteness.
Humans have, so far, not managed to show that they can consistently outperform Azathoth. Indeed, we have yet to consistently pass the “does not cause excruciating lifelong pain” bar. I admit it’s a controversial position, but I feel if we are going to be doing something to human babies, we should be very very sure we do not accidentally cause excruciating lifelong pain.
Beyond that concern, I see a lot of people saying that they want to breed out traits which have no purpose: depression, schizophrenia, autism, mental handicaps, various physical genetic diseases. At which point I yell “aaaaaa! Chesterton’s Fence!”
Let’s take schizophrenia: obviously genetic, obvious and very large costs to fitness. Actual schizophrenics spend too much time hallucinating black mold to raise children very often. Other disorders genetically linked to schizophrenia, such as schizotypal personality disorder, literally have “lack of interest in sex or other human beings” as a diagnostic symptom.
Nevertheless, the genes for schizophrenia have stuck around for thousands of years. There has to be something that outweighs the enormous fitness cost of those genes. And we don’t know what it is. If we did, perhaps we could knowingly make the tradeoff. But we literally have no idea what we are trading off against. For all we know, it’s creativity. Or g factor. Or the human ability to be conscious.
If a Lovecraftian god builds a fence and you don’t know why it’s there, don’t knock down the fence.
There are some genetic diseases where “why is this still around?” has an obvious explanation. Huntingdon’s hits people after they’ve had kids. Tay-Sachs carriers are fully capable of having children and mostly marry other Jews, who are more likely to be Tay-Sachs carriers as well. Eliminate those as much as you like. But if you don’t have a good explanation for why something obviously fitness-reducing is still present in the population, Thou Shalt Not Fuck With Azathoth.
Finally, there is something called the disability paradox. If asked to rate disabled people’s quality of life, most people will say that their quality of life is very low. However, most disabled people report that they have relatively high quality of life. In fact, some studies suggest that lower quality of life for disability is mediated by ability to participate in activities rather than to the impairments themselves. If you’re in a wheelchair and you can work a job, have friends, and enjoy an interesting hobby, you’re probably going to be about as happy as anyone else. If you’re in a wheelchair and you’re stuck at home all day and you’re lonely and you don’t feel like you contribute anything to society, then you won’t.
Now, perhaps you will argue that people who aren’t disabled see the true horror of disability, while disabled people have to put a bright spin on things in order to get through the day. That is maybe true. On the other hand, it does bring up the question of why all the people with no jobs, no friends, and no hobbies haven’t put a bright spin on things too.
In addition, disabled people have actually been disabled, which seems like a bit of a relevant consideration when you’re talking about whether the lives of disabled people are worth living. They have first-hand experience with the situation. They understand the qualia far more than some random person who is offering up their opinion based on, what, Lifetime movies? If more than half of disabled people are looking at their lives and going “actually, my quality of life is moderate to high,” that seems like reasonable evidence that their quality of life is, in fact, moderate to high.
In fact, some disabled people are so in support of disability that they compare medical treatment of disability to genocide. I do not offer this up as an argument against cochlear implants. I am just pointing out that this is pretty strong evidence that many Deaf people, at least, are perfectly happy being Deaf.
Furthermore, if we assume that most disabled people are in fact basically happy– and far more could be happy if, instead of eugenics, we concentrated our resources on expansions of assistive tech, accommodations, and disability rights advocacy– then we probably shouldn’t do selective breeding to eliminate disabilities, for much the same reason that we shouldn’t do selective breeding to eliminate red hair or attached earlobes or that weird ankle thing everyone in my family has. There’s no point to eliminating a trait that people can have perfectly happy lives with.
I will put out my position here: I think that the anti-disability opinion of abled people is nothing more than a cognitive bias. I suspect it goes both ways– depression is much, much worse than people who have never been depressed think it is; being in a wheelchair is much, much better– and that, in fact, the opinions of people who do not have a disability about how bad that disability is are uncorrelated with how unhappy the people with that disability are. Which has obvious problems for a naive selective breeding program run by abled people. If we do choose to engage in selective breeding to eliminate disabilities, it should be based on careful quality of life research with disabled people themselves, not the prejudices of the abled.
I agree with your conclusion about the cognitive bias regarding disability, but I am not sure that the examples against eugenics you give are relevant. The selection for dairy cows and special dog breeds is extreme compared to what most supporters of eugenics advocate(d). The aim was not, for chattel or pets, to remove some traits, but to select for minimum variance and very specific traits. Assuming that the HDB people are rigorous and that you want to select for maximum IQ, the first step, for human beings, would be to prevent anyone not from European Jew descent from having offspring.
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I don’t think anybody seriously thinks selecting for maximum IQ is near the top of the list of priorities; we shouldn’t confuse “IQ is very salient in HBD discussions because it’s a big point of departure from the mainstream” with “People into HBD think IQ is the most important thing evar”.
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IQ was just given as an example of one trait you could wish to select for, and certainly not seriously.
I found what was bothering me about our host’s post. We do not suck at all at eugenics. Our whole civilization is based on our success at eugenics, in fact. Without the selection for high-yield crops, there would be very little agriculture, and no high-density settlements. We are so good at selecting traits and modifying plants that the ancestor for maize was hard to identify.
The examples are more about what is seen as valuable, or even necessary in some cases.
For the cows it is obvious. Milk producer do not care about cow comfort. And when the cow is done producing milk, you can sell the meat anyway. It is actually worse than that if you are a farmer facing competition, because even if you care you’ll have strong incentives towards using the methods allowing you to stay in business.
For the dogs : dog breeders weight the comfort of their pet below the status conferred by those pets (and below the money earned selling those pets). Breeding dogs for fashion (instead of for a specific function) is not so old, and was especially fashionable in Victorian England. Signaling status was most valuable, comfort of the pet was… well, let’s look at what people do to their offspring to get them to “win” in beauty contests or in competitive sports, to have a baseline how relevant comfort of others is for a non-negligible part of the population.
Lastly, there is a problem regarding long-term thinking. Thanks to eugenics + science, it is possible to find the optimal set of traits for a plant or an animal, and then to mass-produce this set of traits. Hence the creation of cultivar or cattle varieties with very low genetic diversity. So this favors monoculture, turned up to eleven in terms of both benefits and risks. Add the strong incentives towards maximum productivity due to competition, so that mitigation would threaten your business, and there we are. But that is not a strong case against eugenics either.
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As a short-sighted person, I would be fine with any work to phase out the genes for short-sightedness (though my preference for that is low, and I’d rather see it happen slowly and progressively and non-intrusively).
I’d be in favor of “mild” eugenics where we take things slowly, and focus in priority on things where everybody agrees quality of life is bad, where we suspect there’s no upside, where it’s a recessive trait and so unlikely to disappear on it’s own, where it’s very expensive to treat, etc. Trying to do what we did to dogs and cows would indeed be way crazy.
Sure, the lives of (many) disabled people may be perfectly fine, but it’s still a cost to society, for the families, for the healthcare system, etc. That cost may not be bad enough to justify harming actual living disabled people, but it would still be worth reducing disability in the long run, which seems to harm pretty much nobody.
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Hi! Welcome back to blogging!
So, if our goal is to prevent unknown factors from causing deleterious effects down the line on the human race, shouldn’t we be either practicing strong eugenics or stopping vaccination? In terms of numeric effect, something like smallpox or polio would have an incredibly larger effect on human population and fitness levels than whether or not certain genetic abnormalities were present in the population or not. If we fear losing some essential quality and turning ourselves into milk-cows or purebred dogs by focusing on eugenics (in the breeding against recessive conditions rather than breeding for exaggerated traits), should we not also fear that we’re losing crucial things by not having the human population be naturally smallpox-resistant?
Also, I don’t find the polling data particularly persuasive. Hedonic adaptation means that people tend to reset their baseline level of happiness to their expected conditions, and don’t generally tend to actually average out what happiness looks like in the average case and compare themselves accurately. If I was paralyzed and was forced to use a wheelchair, I could adapt my life, but I think that a very large percentage of the people would prefer the ability to walk or see or hear over the inability to do so.
Does this mean that we should prioritize hypothetical future nonparalyzed people over living, current, actual paralyzed people? Of course not! But if it’s hypothetical future nonparalyzed people versus hypothetical future paralyzed people? Well, yes, I think we should do that to the extent that we can safely and ethically.
I do think that eugenics is hard, and I don’t see that there is huge need for people to do much beyond making information available via, e.g., 23andme and letting people make their own decisions. I also think that people should be free to try; subgroups that want to segregate themselves off and breed on a schedule should be allowed to try, and any who don’t want to be part of any such efforts should be free to reproduce with any consenting partners if they so choose.
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Firstly, I just want to register how pleased I am. I remembered your blogging being awesome, and here we go – I’m pretty much convinced by everything in this post. Prediction confirmed.
Now, on to the inevitable nitpicking, I guess:
Is eugenics really concerned with reducing disability? Attempting to reduce crime seems somewhat safer than the interventions you describe.
Attempting to raise intelligence sounds *very hard*, but merely raising average intelligence sounds much easier – selecting against unusually *low* intelligence, that is.
I’m not sure how these interact with the objection that these traits must be useful or they would have been selected away; since they exert only moderate selection pressure (especially in modern society?) Still, there is something there.
One suggestion I have not seen, but which seems easy to argue for, would be selecting for happiness to raise the average happiness set-point. This also seems to dodge many of your objections
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The government already does things that affect who has kids and how many kids they have. That’s awfully difficult to avoid if you have things like public schools and social welfare. The net effect of our social policies is probably dysgenic – there are certainly bigger subsidies to raising the children of less-educated, less-conscientious people than the children of more-educated, more-conscientious people. So we’re already encouraging certain people to procreate more than others, it’s just incidental rather than intentional. The actual eugenic things that are currently on the table are things like paying drug addicts to get on long-term forms of birth control (or get sterilized.) Those would have to expand massively before they would balance out the pushes happening in the other direction. It’s not a matter at this point of whether we’re going to socially engineer who has kids – we’re already doing that. It’s just a matter of to what degree and in what direction.
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Seems like people themselves are doing this more strongly than the government – women who want an education and a high-paying powerful job are having less children, and I don’t think government incentives have much to do with that (social norms do though …).
(I’m all for complaining about disgenic trends, especially in welfare, but it seems to me the root of the problem is people’s desires, and that’s very hard to “fix”)
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Indeed. I mean, look at our host. An intelligent female who is becoming a programmer rather than having kids, and not just because it would make her lots of money that she could then spend on all her future kids, but in large part to give that money towards saving African children.
It’s like, put your own oxygen mask on before helping the person next to you, right? Don’t go saving children in other countries before you’ve had some of your own. The Effective Altruism movement is one of the more persuasive arguments I’ve seen for the radical SJW position that Western civilization is going to get wiped out and will fully deserve it when it does.
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I agree. But if there things you can do on the margins for that in areas that we already have public policy, those are worth considering, even if they aren’t going to push things that much. In terms of educated women not procreating, those might include changing the tax code to lower the marginal rate for second earners in married couples, or expanding the use of magnet programs/magnet schools so it’s not as imperative to wait to have kids until you can afford the house in the good school district. Those aren’t going to fully counteract the effect of people’s desires, but maybe they can counteract them just a little.
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>I mean, look at our host. An intelligent female who is becoming a programmer rather than having kids, and not just because it would make her lots of money that she could then spend on all her future kids, but in large part to give that money towards saving African children.
>she
Rude.
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(1) I am, actually, planning on having children.
(2) I am not a female. Given that you know that I’m studying programming, you probably know this. Banned.
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Disability might need to be split into categories– there are a lot of people on the autism spectrum who like the way their minds work, but I haven’t seen anyone say they like being vulnerable to sensory overload.
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It is! The general vocabulary is ‘impairment’ vs ‘disability’. To quote people who put things into words better than me:
“Impairments are our raw set of abilities, needs, medical conditions, etc. This is not socially constructed, this is just how we are. Disability is how society views and values various abilities, interacts with people who have specific impairments and, through a variety of ways, disables us from participating.”
-http://into-the-weeds.tumblr.com/post/65898353705/that-is-not-what-the-social-model-means-the
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Thank you.
I assume it can get complicated. I’m 4’11”. Being short means there are some things I can’t reach (not all of them the result of design choices), that I’ve been treated as ridiculous, that it’s assumed people like me are unwanted (most discussions of eugenics assume that people will choose for height), that it’s ok to kill me for the safety of taller people (risks associated with airbags), and that I fit better in airplanes.
I fly very rarely, so I’d trade that last for safer airbags, but it’s still there.
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“The critics of eugenics have asserted that there is no such thing as a bad gene. Try telling this to someone who has inherited the genes for cystic fibrosis, Huntington’s chorea or one of the other four thousand or so genes for debilitating disease; or to the parents of a child with mental retardation or psychopathic personality. The eugenicists believed there are bad genes that would be best eliminated. They were right.”
-Richard Lynn
that said…
…I am skeptical of eugenics because it might easily lead to technological advance, which is dangerous for reasons outlined by Brian Tomasik here: http://foundational-research.org/publications/risks-of-astronomical-future-suffering
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That seems to lean very hard on the notion that animal suffering easily outweighs human pleasure, which seems false to me. What would you say is the ratio? If you’re trading N animals (let’s say cats) with X amount of suffering vs. 1 human with the same amount of suffering, and can alleviate one side but not both, what is the N where you’re indifferent? (Personally I put it at about 50. I’m 80% confident that it’s 1:20 or less, and 80% confident that it’s 1:130 or more.)
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If the level of suffering is equal: 1:1.
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OK, that raises another question. If a cat and a human are in the same amount of chronic pain, is that also approximately the same amount of suffering?
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I’m more than a little skeptical of some of the reasoning behind the arguments that wild animal suffering is so incredibly severe. In particular, the authors gives way, way, way, way too much weight to painful deaths. I don’t think a painful death is worse than any other kind of painful thing. I think that anyone who would give up years of their life to avoid a painful death has a neurotic phobia of pain.
Yes, a slow, lingering painful death over a period of months or years is horrifying, but being mauled to death by a lion over the course of ten minutes doesn’t seem excessively worse than most other types of death. If I was given a choice between dying peacefully in my bed, or living another week and getting eaten by a bear at the end, I’d pick the bear. (assuming the week consisted of quality life of course).
Human hunter gatherers, in their natural habitat, are usually very happy, and often have higher quality of life than farmers in non-industrial nations. I suspect that most wild animals are like this too. Sure, the periods of famine and injury suck. But other than that life is probably fine.
Now, don’t get me wrong, I do think that the suffering of wild animals is something to be concerned for. I support regulated hunting to prevent animals from overpopulating and starving (I assume you’d agree with my that quick death by bullet is usually preferable to slow agonizing death by starvation, at least in animals). I’m also interested in the possibility of genetically modifying animals to feel less pain, so that someday people can enjoy nature without any of the animals in it suffering at all. I just think that the assumption that most wild animal’s lives aren’t worth living is unwarranted and based on some sloppy logic.
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I think you vastly underestimate the horror of a death by being torn apart, asphyxiated, etc. And a painful death is not inherently worse than another type of pain, but it is generally more severe in the level of pain.
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At best, Chesterton’s Fence is an argument for being careful about eugenics, not a case against it altogether. It’d be good to have some idea about the side effects of eugenics, but that’s an applause light – no one is going to say, “No, we shouldn’t have good ideas about side effects, let’s charge ahead!”. I don’t find the analogy to dogs to be persuasive, either. People care about their dogs, but differently from how they care about their children – for example, they’re much more willing to euthanize their dogs when treatment would be expensive than they would be if it were their child. Also, children (and people in general) are better at communicating than dogs are, so it’s easier to discover when there’s something wrong with them.
As for the argument about disabled people being happy – we’re all disabled to a certain degree, because there are things we can’t do (fly, have super strength, etc), disabled people are just more disabled than average. Some people, both disabled and able-bodied, are happy despite these limitations, but because they limit what we can do, these limitations are still bad and should be eliminated. For example, not being able to walk is bad for the many of the same reasons that not being able to be an Olympic-class sprinter is bad – because it’s a limitation on what you can do. The ideal is for everyone to be an omnipotent god.
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While nobody is going to say let’s charge ahead without understanding side effects, that’s kind of exactly what advocating eugenics with our current body of knowledge is.
The discussion on dogs wasn’t that dogs are as loved and valuable as children. It’s that we value dogs as pets for being pets, and feel strong affection for them. Yet despite this eugenics still results in agony for dogs. The point of this being raised was to point out that, even if we have a vested interest that eugenics doesn’t harm what we’re applying it to, very unwanted side-effects can occur.
I have no idea what you’re trying to say with your rant about how everyone is limited in some way. Disabled people are still less able then the norm, omnipotent gods is an unrealistic expectation to have and certainly isn’t what we base society around, and in general I just don’t know what you’re trying to say. I don’t understand how it’s relevant to any discussion.
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Regarding the dogs issue, it’s more complicated than merely whether we care about them because we care about them in certain ways and don’t care about them in other ways. People who would be grief-stricken at seeing their dog run over by a car don’t even think of the everyday suffering that it may experience as a result of being bred the way it is. Perhaps it’s because they’re inconsistent, but it’s also possible that they care about different things when it comes to dogs, and that the analogy to children just doesn’t apply.
Regarding the limitations point, the general principle is that it’s good to do be able to do more. It’s better to be omnipotent than merely very able (e.g. a super-strong super-intelligent transhuman), it’s better to be very able than to be normal (or what’s considered “normal” now), and it’s better to be normal than to be disabled, because the principle is that it’s better to be able to do more. To use EY’s example, if it’s good to prevent a child’s IQ from falling from 120 to 100, it’s also good to increase a child’s IQ from 100 to 120 – because having an IQ of 120 is better. The same applies to mental disorders, physical capabilities, and so on.
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Replying to blacktrance.
If you gave somebody the outright option of “Your dog will be less cute/strong/whatever, but won’t suffer agony/won’t suffer severe health problems” they’d accept it. People aren’t being inconsistent about this, we actively don’t want dogs to suffer agony or have health problems, yet they do due to our intervention through eugenics. It’s possible that the people who bred dogs didn’t care and this is a recent change in the human state, however, but the far simpler answer seems to be that they didn’t really understand the wider effects of their breeding.
Quoting the original post, “I do not offer this up as an argument against cochlear implants. I am just pointing out that this is pretty strong evidence that many Deaf people, at least, are perfectly happy being Deaf.”
Yeah, limitations are bad. But you have to look at this from cost and payout, and risk versus reward. How much do we lose, or are at risk to lose, by implementing eugenics/completely wiping out certain genetic born disabilities? How much do we gain by eliminating certain disabilities? It turns out that disabled people can live lives just as happy as everybody else, so there’s less gain then you’d intuitively expect.
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I think your examples of schizophrenia and Tay-Sachs are backwards. Schizophrenia is definitely not “obviously genetic.” The twin concordance is lower than for tuberculosis. It’s probably caused by infection and the heritability is the result of a Red Queen arms race.
Why do you not apply the same conservatism to TS that you did to schizophrenia? Why are Ashkenazim 3% TS carriers? You seem to say that Ashkenazi just happen to have it, end of story. Maybe you mean a founder effect, bad luck in the initial draw? The numbers don’t work out. In the absence of heterozygote advantage, a lethal recessive evolves hyperbolically. Go back 30 generations, and the current 3% rate blows up to everyone. Reality is more complicated, such as dead children being replaced, but most likely there is large heterozygote advantage. What is it that Ashkenazi were strongly selected for, differently than other populations? What do Ashkenazim and Acadians have in common?
When it comes to recessive diseases, there are two things one could mean by “eugenics.” It could mean reducing the prevalence of the disease, or it could mean reducing the proportion of carriers. Carriers not breeding or selective abortion for TS would accomplish the second. But the existing Haredi practice of not letting carriers marry prevents the disease without reducing the prevalence of carriers. If the carriers have heterozygote advantage today, it is promoting the prevalence, which may be a good thing.
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Well, Ashkenazim seem to have an average IQ significantly above 100, which is possessed by neither Oriental Jews nor Sephardim. Hypotheses tend to relate to historically common professions requiring literacy.
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If schizophrenia is not genetic then what do you make of this?
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I don’t dispute that it is heritable. Indeed, I explicitly said that it is. Identifying specific genes changes nothing.
Everything “is genetic.” TB “is more genetic” than schizophrenia.
The question is why the genes persist. Either they provide countervailing positive effects or they haven’t had time to be selected away. The second case is what’s true with TB genes. Eugenics to make people less vulnerable to TB probably has no downside. In the case of schizophrenia, we haven’t identified an infectious agent, but it’s probably the same as with TB. And unlike TB, the disease continues to take a big toll, so eugenics against it has an upside.
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The paper is making a stronger claim than heritability. They are identifying which genotypes cause which symptoms associated with schizophrenia.
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There are two infection hypotheses: that the genes protect against infection or that they protect against the disease as a side-effect of infection. The first is a Red Queen arms race hypothesis that new genes are continually appearing. The second is that the disease exists because the infection is new and we have not yet reached accommodation with it.
That different genes predict different variants of schizophrenia is evidence against the first hypothesis, though it is still possible that the different genes protect against several infections that produce different variants. Though the possibility that different infections produce schizophrenia is more matched to the second hypothesis, that schizophrenia is a side-effect. This hypothesis is that it is an attractor, a state that many kinds of damage can push the brain. The genes change the details of the attractor.
I am surprised by the numbers in the paper. The claimed heritability is higher than I have seen before. Frankly, I don’t believe it. I think that their references are cherry-picking. And I don’t believe the numbers they get for their own results; GWAS has a bad history, although it’s getting better. If the numbers they get are correct, that is evidence against the infectious hypothesis. But there are infections with heritability as high as they claim, like leprosy. And the infections causing schizophrenia could be endemic. For example, strep is believed to be a cause of narcolepsy.
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Good discussion. Another reason I don’t see a lot of merit in eugenics is that it takes generations to have any effect (more generations the less extreme the implementation, and more extreme implementations are of course riskier and more morally questionable), and technological progress seems likely to change what’s desired and provide alternate solutions to problems more quickly than eugenics can operate.
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This seems to be used around here as a general counterargument against things that involve societies planning more than a few decades ahead into the future — especially when the goal directly involves humans. (I don’t think I’ve seen it used against global warming; I can think of some reasons for this, but I also might have just missed it.)
But there have been general counterarguments, phrased in the idiom local to the relevant place and time, against things that involve societies planning for the future for a very long time — and so far none of them have been right.
(I would be interested in seeing a list of traits common in those apocalypse-sects. My un-statistical impression is that they tend to support breaking common social bonds and conventions in favor of polygamy or ‘free love’ and the holding of property in common, and such practices of empathy as vegetarianism — more specifically, that both those traits and the belief in the coming end of the world are common within that set of things. Sometimes a different justification for the breaking of social bonds is found: John Humphrey Noyes, founder of the Oneida Community, invented both the term ‘free love’ and the struggle session, both of which his commune practiced — but the justification was not that the apocalypse was soon to come, but rather that the Second Coming had already occurred and that therefore the eschaton could be immanentized.)
The key point here is that these sects that advocate the radical shortening of societal time-preference are common — and that they phrase their beliefs in the terms of the local idiom. In Islamic countries, they are Islamic groups, like the Qarmatians; in Catholic countries, they are heretical lay movements, like the Brethren of the Free Spirit; in Protestant countries, they are Protestant sects, like the Oneida Community; in New Age states like ’60s California, they are New Age cults… and now there are atheistic and rationalistic places, so we ought to expect there to be atheistic and rationalistic sects of this nature.
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The equation of radical social liberalism with “apocalyptic cults” has always seemed to me THE case of confirmation bias for reactionaries. The most powerful and populated extremely socially liberal, feminist, etc. communities are probably the metropolitan areas and university of modern Western nations, not obscure little sects? Yes, they have a lot of sacredness and taboos and ideology – but “short time preference”? They even often go all “think of the children!”, etc.
On the other hand, probably the majority of the apocalyptic/doomsday organized sects – even Hezbollah partly fits! (http://aveilandadarkplace.com/2014/02/26/what-it-is-like-to-grow-up-in-hezbollah-culture/) – feature very little feminism, pacifist rhetoric or tolerance for slackers. All of these vague, I’d say, dog-whistles – “polygamy OR free love”? “holding of property in common”? seem hand-picked to further the confirmation bias for entirely unlike things.
P.S. it’d sure be cool and interesting if there was a Californian Amakusa Shiro! And yet the Weathermen don’t seem to have been like Amakusa Shiro, Timothy Leary doesn’t seem to have been like Amakusa Shiro… perhaps the reactionary/Spenglerian explaination is simply that the modern Westerners are too degenerate and pathetic to get a good apocalyptic sect with a real prophet going, and so make a civilization instead?
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This brand of radical social liberalism mainstreamed in the ’60s. My father has told me about the (transparently stupid reassurance-theater, to him) nuke drills he had to put up with in his childhood; he was a few years too young to get caught up in the events of the ’60s (not that they didn’t persist into the ’70s; he eventually became a hippie occultist), but the looming and not-at-all-clear-at-the-time-that-it-wouldn’t-happen risk of nuclear world annihilation could easily lead to time-preference collapse on a societal scale.
(Consider how many close calls there were! Arkhipov, Petrov, etc.)
It’s not as if these have always been “obscure little sects” either — Samo’s favorite example, the Qarmatians, had a Qarmatian state.
But I’m not talking about ‘radical social liberalism’ in general here; do you think the modal radical social liberal would raise genetic engineering within a few generations as an objection to eugenics? I’m talking about the LW-sphere in particular — see “around here” — and LW *is* an apocalyptic sect with a real prophet.
(Not that that’s a bad thing; I only started paying attention to LW after I recognized that, even though I don’t buy its memeplex, it wouldn’t be as good as it is at attracting intelligent/interesting people if not for its wacky beliefs.)
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Ok, so regarding disability:
Let’s assume that you are a regular person with average visual acuity. Let’s say that tomorrow someone invented a safe, cosmetically pleasing, and reasonably cheap implant that expanded your vision spectrum to cover ultraviolet as well as infrared. The majority of implant users are very satisfied with it, claiming that they are now able to experience the world in ways they’d never even thought of before. Would you want to acquire this implant ?
Ok, now let’s say that this implant is version 9.0, and will only be available sometime in the distant future. Unfortunately, all you’ve got today is version 1.0. It works just as well as the 9.0 version, but with one caveat: it has to be installed at birth (or shortly after); when installed in any person older than a year old, the implant simply doesn’t function (and, since this is a thought experiment, let’s assume that the installation is a safe and easy one-time medical procedure). You and/or your spouse are currently pregnant. Neither of you have the implant (which means that, barring some unexpected breakthrough, you can never get one). Would you want your child to have the implant, or not ?
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Of course I would my child to have this implant!
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What if the implant wasn’t electronic, but was actually a gene therapy treatment — and the treatment is heritable ?
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Hells to the yes, I’d like the implant.
And I’d have to think a lot harder about giving my kids the implant when I don’t have it, but I’m pretty sure the answer is still yes.
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I agree with you, which means that I disagree with Ozy somewhat. I am reasonably happy with my life, but if I could get an implant that allows me to do more, then I’d jump at the opportunity. More capabilities are almost always better, regardless of where you start from.
That said, take a look at my reply to Princess_Stargirl, above.
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We already practice “soft” eugenics i.e. prenatal care, abortions, genetic screening for couples.
I really cannot see us going backwards on this issue if technology and scientific advances allow for greater, relatively safer forms of eugenics.
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“And yet breeders– people who have literally devoted their lives to taking care of dogs– made their beloved animals live lives of tremendous pain.”
Do breeders necessarily care more about their ‘beloved’ animals than the farmers do? In both cases it’s a business.
My understanding is that breeders causing serious genetic conditions in dogs is a fairly recent thing which started happening after dogs moved from working animals to being mostly pets, with the consequence that breeders stopped caring so much about functional qualities like health and started caring more about ‘showy’ qualities like sloped backs and big eyes that are purely aesthetic.
It isn’t entirely obvious to me that human parents/institutions would make the same choice with eugenics, or at least not to the same degree. It is a legitimate worry though.
“I think that the anti-disability opinion of abled people is nothing more than a cognitive bias”
There is definitely a known bias in estimating how much a disability will effect a person (or any sort of misfortune, I believe). But self-rated quality of life is only one reason we might want to reduce the amount of disability in the population. Increasing the strength, intelligence, mobility, etc. of the population seems valuable for all sorts of reasons besides the direct improvement to individual quality of life. So does having certain human factors be general in the population.
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Happiness is not welfare. Everyone reverts to some mean for how happy they feel, but that doesn’t mean they couldn’t be better off. We know this because people are often willing to undergo expensive and painful treatment to recover from a (say) paralysis.
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I’m having a hard time reading “Some studies suggest that lower quality of life for disability is mediated by ability to participate in activities rather than to the impairments themselves” as “if disabilities didn’t take away your ability to do things, they’d be a walk in the park!” Which, I mean, ok.
It’s not at all clear to me that we actually care about dogs being in pain enough to trade off cuteness to prevent it, so it’s not clear that we are actually screwing up our dog eugenics. I just wish I were more convinced we actually care about children being in pain enough to trade off cuteness to prevent it.
It seems kind of contradictory to argue that we shouldn’t do eugenics because we’re so bad at it that it might cause disability in our children, and then to argue that there’s no point in doing eugenics because actually disability is cool and good.
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Wanna hear a disturbing extension of your observation about cows and dog breeds?
I wonder if assortive mating could lead to something like that without any top-down eugenics program. Assortive mating has always been a thing, but it’s probably gotten to be more of a thing with steadily increasing levels of mobility, urbanization, education, etc. (I put “education” on the list because my parents met in college chemistry classes. That didn’t happen in the 19th century.)
And then the internet comes along and gives a *big* boost both through dating sites that let you explicitly match through very fine-grained criteria, and also people meeting romantic partners through subcultures more narrow than could have existed pre-internet.
The result is that we may soon breed a subpopulation of super-nerds that have an average IQ of 170 but also have ALL THE MENTAL ILLNESSES!
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Well an average IQ of 170 would be absurd, but basically you’re describing the Ashkenazi Jews but on a bigger scale. I’m quite okay with that happening. Thanks to assortative mating within the Ashkenazi population, we have modern physics. Mental illness is an unfortunate price to pay for that, but I think it was a net benefit in the world.
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I do not trust people to care more about their children than about status, especially when appearance is concerned. I know two women who were mercilessly attacked by their parents for not being pretty enough. I know someone who was repeatedly hassled by her mother for having broad (not muscular) shoulders.
I’ve read a fair amount about parents discriminating against their darker-skinned children.
It’s not all that uncommon for parents to push their kids about weight to the point of the kids getting eating disorders.
The thing with pure-bred dogs is mostly indirect status issues, I suppose– the real status competition is about winning dog shows, and then people want dogs that more or less resemble dog show winners.
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I understand that these words are in the mouth of a hypothetical interlocutor, and not (I hope?) Ozymandias’s view, but hopefully few people actually think that way, right? (I mean, would even Wesley J. Smith say ‘IDGAF about a bunch of dumb cows’ rather than something more nuanced (albeit possibly less honest) about it being in farmers’ interest to be attentive to the welfare of their livestock?)
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I think the revealed preference of humanity as a whole is not caring about whether dairy cows live in constant pain; however, I do dearly hope this will change at some point.
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I wish I could refute that. I feel sad that I can’t.
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I hope so too, and I think some of the categories in this discussion need to be divided into sub-categories. ‘Humanity as a whole’ may prioritize human welfare, but different cultures seriously draw the line differently. Ordinary pet owners or milk drinkers don’t know there is serious continuing pain involved. Cuteness breeders may not know, or put a tarp over the question. Breeders of hunting dogs want function; which requires health; many are protecting functional old breeds from contamination with cutes. Over centuries, hunting or working dogs have been bred – eugenicized – for different purposes, and the oldest lines still kept healthy.
Monolithic humanity as a whole has got a lot of fine but deep cracks, into which information and alternatives can be injected.
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I think it’s irresponsible to care about “dumb cows” so much that you trade off the values of actual human beings. Are you really willing to make human lives worse to make cow lives better, or are you just mouthing empty pieties? (And if it’s the former, you’re a traitor to humanity.)
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I don’t think severe cruelty to cows for trivial benefit to humans is justified. I haven’t figured out exactly where all the lines are drawn — is moderate cruelty to cows for the sake of moderate benefit to humanity justified, and where do these “moderates” fall? — but if thinking the tradeoff is somewhere short of “unlimited bovine suffering is justified by infinitesimal human benefit” makes me a traitor to humanity, I suppose you can put me in the traitor to humanity camp.
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I think “traitor to humanity” is a pretty serious expression to be throwing around when we’re talking about milk output.
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“Are you really willing to make human lives worse to make cow lives better”
Yes, absolutely.
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I, for one, am willing to make human lives worse in order to make cow lives better, a bit like how I’m willing to sacrifice American quality of life in order to improve Indian quality of life, as long as the relevant quantities look good. Am I a traitor to America?
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Better/worse than what? Less deliberate infliction of pain on animals, is not the same as, say, putting all or many of us to work growing gourmet fruit to give wild deer an extra treat.
In this sub-thread, I’ll join the “traitors”. With more bandwidth, I’d question the concept of ‘traitor to humanity’, and its entailed ‘loyalty to humanity’.
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I think I probably SHOULD care about whether dairy cows live in constant pain or not, but honestly I don’t. The needle on my outrage scale doesn’t even twitch.
I’m pretty sure I should actually be angry about this, but my moral utility function appears to just not include cows. I’m even only mildly annoyed by the dog thing.
How do I fix this?
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Fwiw, my moral needle shows a sort of vector sum which includes both
1) How bad is X? and
2) How much can I effectively do about X?
Note that 2) includes what engaging with X would cost for my current engagements with Y, Z, A, B, etc and where can my resources most productively go.
If 2) is low enough, then 1) can be quite bad, without the needle prompting me to either engage with X or deny its evil.
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These are good points, but I don’t think artificial selection of humans would go to nearly the extremes of artificial selection on cows. Also, because there are a lot more humans, the threat of genetic diseases is smaller (there is more genetic diversity to work with).
There is another option for eugenics, which unlike the other two might actually work. Allow people to choose their genetic mates. In other words, heavily promote a no strings attached sperm and egg industry. People who are desirable (for any definition of the word desirable) can sell their sperm/eggs for money, and people who want children that have those kinds of traits can purchase them.
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Random thought, there is good evidence that people with diverse genetic backgrounds are above average attractiveness, intelligence and immune systems, due to hybrid vigor, and generally overriding all the crappy recessive genes that populations have picked up. So if we really cared about genetic fitness we’d be encouraging interracial marriages etc, which is the opposite of what the traditional eugenicists like
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I would very much like to see this “good evidence”.
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Unfortunately there isn’t any…
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Resolving the IQ paradox: heterosis as a cause of the Flynn effect and other trends. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17638507
Why are mixed-race people perceived as more attractive?
http://psych.cf.ac.uk/home2/lewis/44%20Lewis%20Mixed%20Race%20(Perception%202010).pdf
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289603000588
The secular rise in IQ: Giving heterosis a closer look
SECULAR GAINS IN FLUID INTELLIGENCE: EVIDENCE FROM THE CULTURE-FAIR INTELLIGENCE TEST http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=135589&fileId=S0021932003000336
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Plus the obvious impact on single gene disorders http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_disorder#Single_gene_disorder
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Less directly relevant as it probably applies more at a micro scale than the population level but interesting: On the Adaptive Origins and Maladaptive Consequences of Human Inbreeding: Parasite Prevalence, Immune Functioning, and Consanguineous
Marriage http://www.epjournal.net/wp-content/uploads/EP08658676.pdf
MHC-assortative facial preferences in humans
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1626373/
Alternatively to reverse the question, given the evidence of hybrid vigorand inbreeding depression in lots of animal populations, and the various human genetic bottlenecks, it would be surprising if these effects didn’t turn up in humans, so its on you to provide counter evidence.
[Sorry to spam Ozy, I don’t seem to be able to edit previous comments]
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Many of those are paywalled so I can’t access them, but I will say that the very first one you cite has a counterargument linked right underneath it (also paywalled).
Heterosis doesn’t cause the Flynn effect: a critical examination of Mingroni (2007).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22003846
The “mixed race people are more attractive” leads to a 404, could you provide a proper link?
Single-gene disorders I could grant, but there are much more efficient ways to get rid of them (e.g. screening).
Re: inbreeding and disease load – it’s true but trivial in this context. Like you said, “inbreeding = bad” doesn’t mean “miscegenation = good”. There is such a thing as outbreeding depression.
The general fact remains that we’ve known for some time that the IQ of mixed race children is (on average) the mean of the IQs of the parental population. Hybrid vigor doesn’t grow on trees, it’s a special case, and moreover the effects do not persist into the second generation.
http://westhunt.wordpress.com/2013/12/18/heterosis/
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I tried to use non-paywalled ones, but maybe its geographically variable. You should at least be able to see the abstracts then googlefu it.
Try this for the attractiveness thing http://www.perceptionweb.com/abstract.cgi?id=p6626
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For more on Chesterton’s Fence as applied to human adaptedness, there’s Bostrom and Sandberg’s “Evolutionary Optimality Challenge” (2008): http://www.nickbostrom.com/evolution.pdf
Yudkowsky applied the concept to intelligence enhancement, calling it Algernon’s Law (1996). Gwern wrote an overview in the context of nootropics: http://www.gwern.net/Drug%20heuristics
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Does this also apply to eugenics based on mutational load? I’m not very familiar with it beyond Scott’s post on his old blog (https://squid314.livejournal.com/345414.html), but it seems to mostly avoid the problem of bad trade-offs.
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I proposed the same thing some time ago. Yes, it does.
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I think if eugenics were going to be a thing we would need to override the fact that a woman or other female-bodied person with great genetics is likely to decide she (she as generic pronoun) has better things to do with her time than have and raise babies. I mean, this is almost certainly not true for me but if it turned out that my genes were really good and it would be good for future generations to propagate them, that wouldn’t stop me hating even the thought of pregnancy. Even incentivising me to have and raise kids by paying me the equivalent of the full time job it is wouldn’t get me to do it. We’d need to pay people – especially womb-having people – with good genes to donate eggs and sperm so that they have the option of contributing their genetic material without having to actually go through pregnancy, and have the option of spending their time using the traits given by their genetic potential to do awesome things.
Basically what it comes down to is that unless you can set up some sort of massive surrogacy and adoption scheme, optimising for future awesome genes is likely to hurt the ability to contribute of the people who have those awesome genes now, especially if they are female-bodied.
We also have the problem that if eugenics is voluntary (and assuming for the sake of argument that it is a good thing), along with any other genes we select for we are also selecting for the genes for not realising or understanding that eugenics is good, the genes for being too irrational to accept whatever incentive we offer, and the genes for just really strongly wanting to have babies anyway.
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To turn things around a bit, keeping depression around for the benefit of society might be kinda evil.
Also, do any of the physical disabilities under discussion have economic costs? If so, these costs borne by society should be considered .
Costs to the affected individuals and costs to society both matter.
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> But if you don’t have a good explanation for why something obviously fitness reducing is still present in the population, Thou Shalt Not Fuck With Azathoth.
What about aging? An argument along the lines of “fixing this was simply too hard, and while there would have been a significant fitness advantage, that still wasn’t enough to get the necessary fixes in” would work for me, but then I haven’t actually done the math, and the argument is sufficiently general that it would work on just about any other disease, too.
I see where you’re coming from re. being cautious about this, but at least in the case of aging, the costs strike me as too high to go with that heuristic.
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Ozy, persistence of a *phenotype* (e.g Schizophrenia) doesn’t prove it is correlated with positive traits, since there could be different mutations involved. Metabolic pathways have multiple genes, each of which can be broken through a lot of different mutations. Persistence of a genetic disease throughout history could simply be due to the appearance of new mutations producing the same phenotype (each individually selected against), rather than a single mutation persisting through time.
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